• Re: GAB

    From Dream Master@VERT/CIAD to Tracker1 on Wed Mar 17 11:22:03 2021
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    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Tracker1 to Gamgee on Wed Mar 17 2021 04:05 am

    Having a strong middle class is important, and the class divide of the
    upper class is growing a lot since the 1970's. I don't think socialist controls work. I do think guidelines that encourage competition, better utilization of assets and fluidity and even eliminating corporate taxes
    can better serve society. Corporations serve a societal purpose, but
    that gets clouded at scale.

    Everything you just wrote I agree with, but I also want to add that corporate taxes are critical for America. If we eliminate corporate taxation, we start to impact our economy. Should the taxes be as high as they are, no.

    Brian Klauss <-> Dream Master
    Caught in a Dream | caughtinadream.com a Synchronet BBS

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Wed Mar 17 16:58:55 2021
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    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Arelor to Tracker1 on Tue Mar 16 2021 04:13 am

    This reminds me of a conversation in a board game forum, in which people was complaining because other people was purchasing
    cheap games elsewhere and posting them for sale in the forum with a profit margin. Well, they may be filthy speculators, but as
    it turns out, they are taking games from people who has them and does not know what to do with them, to the forum people who
    knows what the board games are really worth, so...

    It's much like the vintage computer market. I see people on Reddit all the time picking up massive lots of old Apple Macintosh, IBMs and/or various esoteric hard to come across machines and then flipping them for a ridiculous profit. They usually say that they were able to pick it up from a local seller who had initially planned to recycle their collection, completely unaware that there's a huge market for vintage hardware. 10 years ago, you could buy something like a Macintosh SE for under 50 bucks. Now the same computer would cost you over 250.

    I was bidding for a Macintosh Plus in good condition with a keyboard and mouse on eBay and I dropped out at around 300 dollars. The auction ended at 485 dollars which is so overpriced for a computer that is not particularly scarce. In fact, it's the most common Macintosh as it was produced from 1986-90.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Wed Mar 17 18:06:39 2021
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    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Wed Mar 17 2021 09:23 pm

    Do you trust corporations, international banks? I sure don't. Thats the problem, the "stakeholders" are bad faith actors. And when we say "international bank" or "corporation", we are talking about the people at the top of these institutions, concentrated power.

    No. I do not trust them, or anybody for that matter. They weild the power, so I guess they'll be the ones who will make the decisions.

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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Wed Mar 17 18:21:13 2021
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    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Wed Mar 17 2021 09:26 pm

    Bitcoin isn't backed by any economic, which is why it is hard to value.
    With the Australian dollar, you can look at the Australian economy to help valuate it.

    Secondly, currency is scarce. You can't just make a $100 note easily. It is difficult to, and illegal to, create a $100 note.

    You can issue your own currency, but its still scarce, and it has little value not because of supply and demand of the currency itself, but because the currency won't be backed by economic activity.

    Fiat currencies are not scarce. An infinite number of dollars can be created by the Federal Reserve, as most are digitised rather than printed into existence. US dollars are as scarce as Zimbabwean dollars, which turned out not to be particularly scare when President Mugabe had the misconception he was in the possession of a money tree planeted in his back yard.

    Bitcoin, along with other crypto-currencies & fiat, are not backed by an underlying asset therefore they are not considered scarce by any economic definition of the word. You cannot hold a Bitcoin, nor can you use it in the manufacturing process; and other than percieved value, it has no intrinsic value at all. It's the dot com bubble all over again, fools gold.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Wed Mar 17 19:39:22 2021
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    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Dream Master to Gamgee on Wed Mar 17 2021 08:45 am


    Because it does. Why should employees of McDonald's be making minimum
    wage while the CEO makes 1000x that? Why should the CEO of Space X make 1000x that of an Engineer who actually does the hard work? Knowing that your contributions are equal to that of senior leadership is important
    and knowing that your pay is just as important as theirs is also equally important.


    If the CEO is securing a bunch of multi-million contracts per year for the firm it is easy to consider why he is making big buck and why the janitor (who performs a job who can be performed by a lot of people) makes small buck.

    Specially if the CEO happens to be a big shareholder (as it is often the case) and the janitor does not even have stocks in the firm.

    I think it is only a real issue when the directives make obscene ammounts of money from firms that are crashing badly. I'd fill those situations as outright fraud: they are taking the money of the shareholders in exchange for managing the firm correctly and are instead smoking the money, _knowlingly_. However, this is not the usual case for firms that are sustainable in time.

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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Tracker1 on Wed Mar 17 19:03:00 2021
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    Tracker1 wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it really
    make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of the company,
    or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect you?

    I once worked for a company where the CEO kicked out a Sr. VP for
    a telecom company (vendor) because he was bragging about firing
    10k people so he could get a 6 figure bonus, even though he'd
    have to hire that many back the following quarter. When
    divisions are laid off, so the quarter numbers look better and
    some Sr. Executive gets a fat bonus, it does effect people.

    Perhaps, but that sounds like a one-off. Rare, at best.

    I'm all for capitalism, I'd rather see positions that raise all
    ships. Instead of putting salary caps, and if I ever form another
    company, this will be part of charter bylaws and sale of the
    company in that no member of the company can make more than 100x
    the lowest paid person in the company projected in the course of
    a year, and nobody can make more than 2x their nearest
    subordinate. This way, if you want to make more, you need to
    bring those under you up with you. I'd also have this apply to
    vendor staff working in service for the company as well.

    That all sounds good, but probably not very realistic. People would get "slotted" into whatever payscale is appropriate, and never be able to
    move up. How can you "bring those under you up with you"? It's not up
    to you, usually, what those folks are making. So if they can't ALL be promoted, you can't either. That sure doesn't seem very fair to me.


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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Tracker1 on Wed Mar 17 19:05:00 2021
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    Tracker1 wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Exactly. Instead of bringing the lower class up into the middle class, they'd rather bring the middle class down into the lower class. The politicians remain the only "Elites" left, and have utter control.

    I'd say the 1% will still be the 1%.

    Exactly. It's a sure bet. So the change will be that instead of an
    upper 1%, then a majority in the middle class, and some in the lower class...... we'd have the same upper 1%, then everyone else in the
    LOWER class. Goodbye middle class. Welcome to socialism.



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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Wed Mar 17 19:19:00 2021
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    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
    executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
    paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
    unacceptable.

    Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it
    really make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of
    the company, or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect
    you?

    I swear, you are the epitomy of a broken record. It does matter.

    You keep saying that, but never explain *WHY* it matters.

    Because it does.

    Oh! What a GREAT answer!

    Why should employees of McDonald's be making
    minimum wage while the CEO makes 1000x that? Why should the CEO
    of Space X make 1000x that of an Engineer who actually does the
    hard work?

    Those questions cannot really be answered. My counter would be that
    skills matter and are rewarded. Another possible answer would be (to
    play your silly generic question game): why shouldn't they? You STILL
    have yet to answer that with anything specific.

    Knowing that your contributions are equal to that of
    senior leadership is important and knowing that your pay is just
    as important as theirs is also equally important.

    Perhaps a low-level employee's contributions are *NOT* equal to those of senior leadership. Ever think that might be true? Business models that
    are based on "touchy-feely" and "warm and fuzzy" emotions are doomed to
    fail.

    You are still in this belief that "Trickle Down Economics"
    actually works when it doesn't. Executive compensation is
    ridiculous when employees are getting screwed by menial raises,
    horrible benefits (or none), and PTO policies that benefit no
    one.

    So, you are under the (mistaken) belief that if the CEO was payed
    less, that money would instead be used for employee raises,
    benefits, and PTO policies? Really, you think that? Do you
    actually know *ANYTHING* about running a business? Here's a free
    clue: the money would not be used for those things.

    I do know something about running a business and no, reducing the
    CEO pay does not trickle down. Instead, it shows concern for the employee.

    See above regarding "touchy-feely". Bad business ideas.

    Executives get their "Golden Parachutes" even if they wrong
    the company.

    Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Depends on their contract.
    Again it raises the question of why that would matter to you. It
    doesn't affect you in *ANY* *WAY*, especially if you are not even an employee of that same company. You clearly don't understand how
    things come out of certain/different "pots of money". Perhaps a
    class or two in business administration at your local community
    college would benefit you.

    There you go again, assuming... Too many years of Business
    Administration and Management classes in college have contributed
    to my understanding. Economics as well. My positions are my
    own. I disagree with certain business practices and agree with
    others.

    Yeah, I've noticed that. You may want to take some refresher classes.

    Executives should feel and experience the same pains the rank and
    file do.

    Why? Does the Captain of a cruise boat sleep in the same quarters
    as the rank and file passengers? Does he eat the same food? What
    you fail to understand is that the Captain (or the CEO of a company) wasn't *ALWAYS* the CEO. He worked his way up to get there, and the
    pay and benefits go up as he climbed the ladder. What a concept!

    Again, context. Should a CEO make $100mm/yr while the entry
    level employee makes $24K/yr? You think this is fine, your
    opinion, I disagree.

    Yep, you disagree, but can't really say *WHY*.

    Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
    your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?

    No. I think each classification should make a wage compensurate
    with their skills and capabilities.

    There! That's why the CEO makes more than the burger-flipper!

    So, at a given company, what makes you think that isn't the case?
    Do you think an assembly line worker has the skills to manage a huge corporation? Why wouldn't the person who does have those skills be
    paid a LOT more than that worker?

    Does the CEO have the skills that the assembly line worker has?
    No. Does the assembly worker have the skills of the CEO? No.
    Executive compensation is about retention. I've seen too many
    CEOs destroy a compnay to the point of bankruptcy yet are still
    paid to the day the company is sold off. Is this fair and
    equitable to the rank and file?

    Free life clue: Not everything is "fair and equitable". Sorry, but
    that's reality and you'll have to deal with it.

    For example, entry level IT
    should be paid at the lowest tier, senior at the next higher,
    specialist, etc., etc.

    That's already the case, everywhere that I know of. Eventually you
    reach the top/management/executive level.

    Companies call them tiers but the bands are wide open. Not
    equitable.

    Once again the concept of skills vs compensation seems to elude you.

    Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors
    of being an American citizen?

    Again with this whole Venezuela thing. So, you're telling me
    that you're perfectly fine with people like Elon Musk who founded
    Tesla and SpaceX should be worth billions while his assistant
    should only make $60K/year even though she has approval
    priviledge, goes everywhere he does, and can literaly run the
    company in his absense?

    Yes, I'm perfectly OK with that, even though that isn't entirely
    true the way you've written it. She made more than 60K, she
    certainly did NOT have approval priviledge over anything/everything,
    and it's conjecture to say she could run the company in his absence.
    Very standard Lefty tactics you employed there, but very obvious to
    those who know how you guys try to quietly steer the facts in your
    favor.

    Valid point about her position. She did have specific approval
    authority. Her complain / concern is real.

    She's free to leave the company if she doesn't like her salary. I'm
    sure she signed an employment agreement, right? Nobody held her hostage
    and forced her to continue working, right? If she's so shit-hot she
    could have changed jobs and made more money.

    The disparity in income is the problem.

    None of what you've said above even *ATTEMPTS* to explain why that
    is a problem, which is why you call me a broken record. I keep
    asking you to explain, but..... you dodge the question, and recite
    from the crib notes given out at a Crazy Bernie rally.

    Here's the deal: Income should ***NOT*** be equal for everyone, and
    what somebody else makes is none of your business (assuming they're
    not doing the same job as you are, of course). There should be
    large gaps in pay scales, to incentivize people to strive to move
    up. It's part of what we call "The American Dream".

    The American Dream is something written too many years ago. Now,
    the American Dream is just to survive.

    No, the American Dream is alive and well, and remains unchanged. It's available to anyone who is willing to strive for it. Some make it, some
    do not.

    Do you also feel the U.S. Constitution is invalid because it also was
    written "too many years ago"?

    The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
    mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If
    everyone was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to
    advance, or even to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother?
    They'll still get paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots.
    Is that what you socialists want?

    You didn't address this question. Why?

    Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll
    come to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the
    guns? ;-)

    Us Liberals have guns, too. :)

    Trust me, you're out-gunned.


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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Wed Mar 17 19:26:00 2021
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    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors of being an American citizen?

    You need to remember that people who thinks socialism is good
    think it raises everyone up. To anyone with brains, we know that socialism only brings everyone down - except for the Elites at
    the top.

    I believe in the appropriate use of socialism. If you object to socialism, reject the checks you'll be getting from the
    government over the next week or two. Reject Medicare. Reject
    Social Security. Reject Unemployment Benefits. You can't keep
    screaming "Socialism--BAD" yet are willing to accept the funds.

    I won't be getting any stimulus checks, so bad assumption by you. As
    for Medicare and Social Security, I've been paying my "premiums" into
    those programs for DECADES. Those are services that I've *purchased*,
    so why would I not use what I paid for when the time comes?

    Can you understand that? I FUCKING PAID FOR THOSE BENEFITS. That's
    *MY* money that I loaned to the government for 50 years so they could
    make interest on it. It wasn't optional for me to contribute.

    Again, I am not talking about turning into a socialist nation but
    a nation that actually takes care of its people. If people can
    stop worry about medical bills, education debt, etc., they can
    bring themselves further and further up.

    Exactly. Instead of bringing the lower class up into the middle
    class, they'd rather bring the middle class down into the lower
    class. The politicians remain the only "Elites" left, and have
    utter control.

    I'm sure that Dream Master is well aware of this, but in his
    ignorance thinks that he is one of the Elites.

    Honestly I'm not sure he's aware of that. He comes across as one
    who's slurped FAR too much of the Bernie koolaid to ever recover.
    I'm hoping he will one day actually move to Venezuela so he can be
    happy.

    The middle class has progressively been destroyed by Republican administrations both at the state and federal level. The
    disparity between the lower class and upper class keeps getting
    bigger. Those in the middle class, like me, keep seeing it
    harder to get ahead.

    So your solution is do bring *EVERYBODY* down to the lower class. Let everyone but the ruling elite class be equally miserable, right? Do you actually not understand that this is *EXACTLY* what socialism produces?
    Just look around the world and see the proof! For fucks sake, open your
    eyes and see!



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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Wed Mar 17 19:42:25 2021
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    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Dream Master to Gamgee on Wed Mar 17 2021 08:51 am


    I believe in the appropriate use of socialism. If you object to
    socialism, reject the checks you'll be getting from the government over
    the next week or two. Reject Medicare. Reject Social Security. Reject Unemployment Benefits. You can't keep screaming "Socialism--BAD" yet
    are willing to accept the funds.


    I would gladly reject all the equivalent things in Spain if I got my money back.

    However, it turns out people gets forced to pay for that stuff. Once you pay for a product you expect the product in return.

    The rean tragedy is when they force you to pay, then you don't get what the government promised you in exchange of your protection money, and still have to withstand quotes as above.

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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Wed Mar 17 20:02:01 2021
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    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Dream Master to Boraxman on Wed Mar 17 2021 09:00 am

    Yet, Conservatives keep touting the importance of the 1% helping the
    rest. They don't. Trickle Down Economics DOES NOT WORK!


    Not so much the 1% helping the rest as the fact that having powerful industries (even if they are far more wealthy than what a lot of people want) usually translates in better availability of goods and services overall.

    In a wealthy country people can afford to hire non essential services (such as decorative gardening) that are just not available en masse in poor areas.

    The point of the so called Trickle Down phenomena isn't that Mark Zuckerberg is going to rise everybody's salary because he is making loads of money. The point is that rich industrialists are more likely to open new industries if they have resources to do it with. More industries mean more jobs and more goods and services.

    Obviously if your expectation is that a janitor at a Facebook office is going to make more money because Facebook is generating millions, you are going to be sorely disappointed.

    I thik the proof is in the pudding. A poor dude in certain hellhole coutries I --
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dream Master on Wed Mar 17 20:12:20 2021
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    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Arelor to Dream Master on Wed Mar 17 2021 08:02 pm

    I thik the proof is in the pudding. A poor dude in certain hellhole coutries

    Sorry, cut sentence.

    [...] A por dude in certain hellhole countries I can think off, which have heavy anti-enterprise policies in place, is going to do worse than a poor dude in your average 1st world nation, if just because there are more goods and services available at affordable prices, and job positions to grab because employers are not being kicked out.

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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Arelor on Wed Mar 17 23:21:41 2021
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    On 3/17/2021 6:09 AM, Arelor wrote:
    You know, when people say "My country's currency is backed
    by our powerful economy" what they really mean is they have
    a currency that isn't anchored to any stable equivalence.

    They pretty much tell you "This 100 $credit note is worth a
    certain ammount of goods and services, which is subject to
    variation, and you have to trust us to deliver and upkeep
    that value."

    ie. "This money is worth something because we tell you it
    is, but the worth can change at any minute because me says
    so."

    I have the constant feeling that fiat currencies are like
    pyramid schemes. They only work for as long as people
    believes in them.


    Could always go back to gold and silver coin. Or currency
    at least partially backed by it.
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dream Master on Wed Mar 17 23:26:52 2021
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    On 3/17/2021 10:22 AM, Dream Master wrote:
    Having a strong middle class is important, and the class divide of the
    upper class is growing a lot since the 1970's. I don't think socialist
    controls work. I do think guidelines that encourage competition, better
    utilization of assets and fluidity and even eliminating corporate taxes
    can better serve society. Corporations serve a societal purpose, but
    that gets clouded at scale.

    Everything you just wrote I agree with, but I also want to add that corporate taxes are critical for America. If we eliminate corporate taxation, we start to impact our economy. Should the taxes be as high
    as they are, no.

    Again, for the most part, corporations don't pay taxes, their customers
    do. Another reason to eliminate corporate taxes and put firmer
    restrictions in place is that they should either pay out dividends on
    profits that are taxed from shareholders or expand, which creates more
    jobs and more tax and money flow. It's also a necessary step to (re)establishing a non-living-entity status in that corporations do not
    have free speech rights, and should not be allowed to contribute to
    election campaigns or messaging unless they have completely open books
    and all donations are from individual people and those contributions
    disclosed as well.
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Gamgee on Wed Mar 17 23:31:56 2021
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    On 3/17/2021 5:03 PM, Gamgee wrote:
    I'm all for capitalism, I'd rather see positions that raise all
    ships. Instead of putting salary caps, and if I ever form another
    company, this will be part of charter bylaws and sale of the
    company in that no member of the company can make more than 100x
    the lowest paid person in the company projected in the course of
    a year, and nobody can make more than 2x their nearest
    subordinate. This way, if you want to make more, you need to
    bring those under you up with you. I'd also have this apply to
    vendor staff working in service for the company as well.

    That all sounds good, but probably not very realistic. People would get "slotted" into whatever payscale is appropriate, and never be able to
    move up. How can you "bring those under you up with you"? It's not up
    to you, usually, what those folks are making. So if they can't ALL be promoted, you can't either. That sure doesn't seem very fair to me.

    Anyone higher up can absolutely decide to pay everyone under them more.

    Of course, the argument for Communism will absolutely keep most workers
    down.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Gamgee on Thu Mar 18 08:29:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6053548B.51343.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <6051F8D1.21830.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: c12c
    Gamgee wrote to Boraxman <=-

    I ask you the same thing that he won't give a straight answer about -
    why does it matter to you what a CEO makes? Why do you think that
    affects you, or is "wrong"?

    He can't. That's the problem.

    To attempt to do so will force him to realize that his Narrative, and
    by extension, is wrong. People like that simply cannot face the reality
    that they are not the experts that they want to believe they are.


    ... "Leave my blouse alone! I said Spellcheck, not Spillcheck"
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Gamgee on Thu Mar 18 08:55:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6053548B.51344.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <6052A173.21868.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: c12c
    Gamgee wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    I once worked for a company where the CEO kicked out a Sr. VP for
    a telecom company (vendor) because he was bragging about firing
    10k people so he could get a 6 figure bonus, even though he'd
    have to hire that many back the following quarter. When
    divisions are laid off, so the quarter numbers look better and
    some Sr. Executive gets a fat bonus, it does effect people.

    Perhaps, but that sounds like a one-off. Rare, at best.

    When a company does that they lose all that knowledge and
    experience. When they need to rebuild, the best people don't want to
    come work for a company that recently laid off 10k people - so they have
    to pay more for the less qualified people (which is bad business).

    But sometimes companies just don't learn. The company that I used to work
    for had a reputation for doing just that. When I hired in, the HR person
    told me about all the problems that they had just finding people (let
    alone good people) to work there because of their history of mass firings.

    But a few years ago, they did it again and outsourced a good chunk of
    their IT to India (and not the tier 1 Indian people). Now, 4 years later,
    they are trying to put a good IT dept back together after having lost
    decades of knowledge and experience (in both the computer systems and
    the business). Plus they are working upstream because you can bet that
    those of us let go 4 years ago are NOT saying good things about working
    for that company.


    ... To our sweethearts and wives. May they never meet!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Gamgee on Thu Mar 18 08:57:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6053548B.51345.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <6052A173.21869.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: c12c
    Gamgee wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Exactly. It's a sure bet. So the change will be that instead of an
    upper 1%, then a majority in the middle class, and some in the lower class...... we'd have the same upper 1%, then everyone else in the
    LOWER class. Goodbye middle class. Welcome to socialism.

    And isn't that how the Roman Empire collapsed? They eliminated the middle class?

    Those who do not study (or study under Leftie "professors") history
    are doomed to repeat it.


    ... Would it help if I got out and pushed?
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Tracker1 on Thu Mar 18 09:01:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6053548B.51346.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <6052F2AE.16933.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: c12c
    Tracker1 wrote to Dream Master <=-

    Again, for the most part, corporations don't pay taxes, their customers do.

    I was watching a documentary about coffee recently. One quote stood out:
    This cup of coffee cost me $2. The grower receives $0.02.

    This implied that the coffee shop owner got the other $1.98 - which is,
    of course, false.

    But that's what people like Dream Master believe. They are completely
    ignorant of economics and if they were in charge, would run a company
    like a 5 year old runs a Cool Aid stand.


    ... If (Wife = "yes") then (MONEY = "Gone") else Single
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Gamgee on Thu Mar 18 21:53:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6053DEB5.49751.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6051F8D1.21830.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Gamgee wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6051F8D1.21830.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6051DBF4.49689.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-

    As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
    executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
    paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
    unacceptable.

    Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it really
    make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of the company,
    or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect you?

    Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
    your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?

    Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors of being an American citizen?

    Ahh, the old "Venezuela" gambit... Nice try, but I'm not buying
    that the only choice is between Venezuela and massive wealth
    inequality.

    Ahh, so you admit that the massive wealth equality (socialism) in Venezuela is a failed model/method of running a government. Strange
    then, why you and Dream Master would wish such a thing for the USA.

    I ask you the same thing that he won't give a straight answer about -
    why does it matter to you what a CEO makes? Why do you think that
    affects you, or is "wrong"?



    I won't speak for Dream Master but the idea that I'm wishing or advocating a Venezuelan type economy is a product of your fanciful imagination and desire to trot out talking points than from any rational analysis of what I've actually said.

    As for CEO's, wealth inequality is a major, major social problem, and directly affects me. It affects my nation.

    It's quite disgusting and pathetic to see the spectacle of working class drones defend and bat for the ultra-wealthy against thier own, as if somehow these billionaires are going to piss wealth and you'll get more splashed on you from your simping.

    The word "cuck" comes to mind when I see it. Right Wingers always cuck.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Gamgee on Thu Mar 18 22:10:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6053DEB5.49752.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6051F8D1.21831.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Gamgee wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6051F8D1.21831.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
    mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If everyone
    was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to advance, or even
    to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother? They'll still get
    paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots. Is that what you socialists want?

    Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll come
    to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the guns?
    ;-)

    I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now
    that you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to
    people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1%
    is on their side.

    Your first sentence there is idiotic. LOL at the second one; I'm not confused at all about capitalism. What does confuse me is why people still think socialism is a valid solution, after seeing that it has
    failed every single place it's been tried. <BOGGLE>

    Are YOU a CEO?

    No.


    OK, so what do you have to gain from the growing disparity? I tend not to shill for things that don't benefit me. But I'm wierd like that.

    Also, you are failing to see that the Socailist/Capitalist dichotomy is a spook. Reality is not a choice between Marxism and our specific form of Capitalism. There are many ways we could vary, modify, evolve things. If you can't see that, then you can't possibly contribute anything meaningful.

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    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Arelor on Thu Mar 18 22:16:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6053DEB7.49753.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6051FFA4.21833.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6051FFA4.21833.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6051DBF2.49688.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
    Wed Mar 17 2021 09:26 pm

    You can issue your own currency, but its still scarce, and it has little
    valu
    e not because of supply and demand of the currency itself, but because
    the currency won't
    backed by economic activity.


    You know, when people say "My country's currency is backed by our
    powerful economy" what they really mean is they have a currency that
    isn't anchored to any stable equivalence.

    They pretty much tell you "This 100 $credit note is worth a certain ammount of goods and services, which is subject to variation, and you
    have to trust us to deliver and upkeep that value."

    ie. "This money is worth something because we tell you it is, but the worth can change at any minute because me says so."

    I have the constant feeling that fiat currencies are like pyramid
    schemes. They only work for as long as people believes in them.

    I have heard, for decades, this argument. That the US dollar will just collapse one day, that money will become useless, that money is really worth nothing.

    Yet the system works. Why? Because there is an economy. Yes, that economy is in decline, and the value will decline, but its value is real, because people believe its real. People believe its real because there is real economic activity behind it.

    It's subject to variations, yes, but its far more stable than say, Bitcoin. Bitcoin varies wildly because it is not tied to any economy yet.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Nightfox on Thu Mar 18 22:22:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6053DEB7.49754.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60521E8B.59070.dove_dove-gen@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
    @TZ: 9258
    Nightfox wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <60521E8B.59070.dove_dove-gen@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6051DBF2.49688.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
    Wed Mar 17 2021 09:26 pm

    Secondly, currency is scarce. You can't just make a $100 note easily. It is difficult to, and illegal to, create a $100 note.

    Though with payments often happening electronically, you don't always
    need physical cash to make a payment or transfer money. Seems to me a
    lot of money could be created out of nowhere electronically.

    True. We are simulating scarcity by limiting and regulating who can change those values.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Tracker1 on Thu Mar 18 22:34:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6053DEB9.49755.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6051EEF7.16896.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: 9258
    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6051EEF7.16896.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6051DBF4.49690.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 3/17/2021 3:33 AM, Boraxman wrote:

    Technology, medicine, science, better agricultural techniques lifted
    people out of poverty.

    And those kinds of things don't typically advance nearly as well or quickly in Socialist societies vs Capitalist. In terms of agriculture
    in particular, socialism is often regressive even. Hence massive starvation that tends to sweep socialist nations.

    I really wish people could get out of this "Communism vs Capitalism" mindset. It really retards progress, meaningful analysis and is misleading. There is no point engaging in discussion of economics if someone thinks that it is an either-or proposition. It is like discussing drinks with someone who thinks its a choice between beer and coke.

    Communism is relatively new, historically speaking. Capitalism is older, but still modern. What do you think people were doing beforehand?

    And Capitalism is different to Free Markets again. People produced advancements and great art and great things and science pre-Capitalism.


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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Tracker1 on Thu Mar 18 22:37:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6053DEBB.49756.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6051EF5F.16897.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: 9258
    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6051EF5F.16897.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 3/17/2021 3:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:

    I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now that
    you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to people,
    confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1% is on their
    side.

    Are YOU a CEO?

    And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there isn't
    a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class disparity.

    You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER argued for Communism. I don't believe that criticising the current ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would lead to it.

    Your either confused as hell, or just arguing against something that lives in your imagination. I can't make head not tails of your fanciful thought proceses.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dream Master on Thu Mar 18 22:57:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6053DEBD.49757.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60521AC6.2172.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
    @TZ: 9258
    Dream Master wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <60521AC6.2172.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
    @REPLY: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    @VIA: VERT/MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-

    @MSGID: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6050C371.2140.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll come
    to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the guns?
    ;-)

    I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now that
    you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1% is on their
    side.

    Are YOU a CEO?

    Precisely my problem with these statements against what I keep saying. CEOs don't give a rats ass about the rank and file, they will take what they want and move on when they feel enough positive, or negative, has been done. Look at Sears. Instead of bringing in a CEO that was
    focused on rebuilding the company, the CEO, Eddie Lampert, tore the company apart into multiple corporate silos having each company fight
    for overall resources. This adversely affected employees, product, and eventually, the company. Lampert and his 1% destroyed Sears.

    Yet, Conservatives keep touting the importance of the 1% helping the
    rest. They don't. Trickle Down Economics DOES NOT WORK!

    Some people here are confused beyond all recognition. They see *ANY* criticism of this as the same as being a Marxist Communist. It's insane. It is just the same as those who see *ANY* criticism of immigration as Nazism.

    CEO's could starve Americans by the hundreds, and there would be people who would tell you that if we didn't allow them to do this, then it would be Venezueala, and we would be starving by the thousands instead.

    This is how Capitalism works. It indoctrinates people into being the lap-dogs for Capital and those who control it. It's not just an economic system, it is a set of values, it relies on people accepting Capitalist MORALITY. These arguments are not about economics. It's defending a morality, a morality that serves the 1%.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Andeddu on Thu Mar 18 23:03:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6053DEBD.49758.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60524899.25115.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: 9258
    Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <60524899.25115.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <6051DBF2.49688.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
    Wed Mar 17 2021 09:26 pm

    Bitcoin isn't backed by any economic, which is why it is hard to value.
    With the Australian dollar, you can look at the Australian economy to help valuate it.

    Secondly, currency is scarce. You can't just make a $100 note easily. It is difficult to, and illegal to, create a $100 note.

    You can issue your own currency, but its still scarce, and it has little value not because of supply and demand of the currency itself, but because the currency won't be backed by economic activity.

    Fiat currencies are not scarce. An infinite number of dollars can be created by the Federal Reserve, as most are digitised rather than
    printed into existence. US dollars are as scarce as Zimbabwean dollars, which turned out not to be particularly scare when President Mugabe had the misconception he was in the possession of a money tree planeted in
    his back yard.

    Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that, but they don't, and arne't going to do it tomorrow.

    Trust.


    Bitcoin, along with other crypto-currencies & fiat, are not backed by
    an underlying asset therefore they are not considered scarce by any economic definition of the word. You cannot hold a Bitcoin, nor can you use it in the manufacturing process; and other than percieved value, it has no intrinsic value at all. It's the dot com bubble all over again, fools gold.

    I agree, mostly. Most of BitCoins value is due to the speculation that is occuring. It is Dutch Tulips, values only because others are willing to pay. But under that, nothing, I agree. It will gain value when you can RELIABLY purchase things in the future with it, universally. Its current value is purely just because of the trading game people are playing.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dr. What on Thu Mar 18 23:08:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6053DEC0.49759.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6051FDD1.51296.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Dr. What wrote to Gamgee <=-

    @MSGID: <6051FDD1.51296.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-

    Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it
    really make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of
    the company, or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect
    you?

    I swear, you are the epitomy of a broken record. It does matter.

    You keep saying that, but never explain *WHY* it matters.

    He can't explain. He can only parrot what his handlers tell him.

    So, according to Google, the president of GM makes $21.6 million.
    Google says that the number of GM Employees is 164,000.

    So a simple calculation of $21,600,000 / 164,000 = $131.70
    So if the GM President gave her salary to the workers, they's only get $132 each, per year. I spend more on coffee per year.

    Looking at it from a different point of view:
    GM makes 6.8 million cars per year.
    The GM President's salary represents $3 per car.

    Google reports that the salary range for a GM worker is $38,344 to $79,867. So let's figure $59,000 on average.

    $59,000 * 164,000 = $9,676,000,000 paid to employees
    $9,676,000,000 / 6,800,000 = $1422.94

    So out of every car sold, the GM President gets only $3, while the
    workers get $1423.

    Your math is off. The calculations are correct, but your assumptions and formulat are off which means your math is off.

    You are assuming that there is a very fixed amount of wealth that would go to wages, and that the CEO's salary is coming from what would have otherwise gone to workers.

    Your calculations, which mathematically correct, don't prove what you think it proves.

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dream Master on Thu Mar 18 23:12:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6053DEC2.49760.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60521AC6.2170.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
    @TZ: 9258
    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    @MSGID: <60521AC6.2170.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
    @REPLY: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    Gamgee wrote to Dream Master <=-

    @VIA: VERT/PALANT
    @MSGID: <60517059.21822.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6050C371.2140.dove-general@caughtinadream.com>
    @TZ: c168
    Dream Master wrote to Gamgee <=-

    As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where
    executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest
    paid worker is now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is
    unacceptable.

    Why does it matter so much to you what the CEO makes? Does it
    really make any difference to you, as either a fellow employee of
    the company, or as a distant observer? How does his salary affect
    you?

    I swear, you are the epitomy of a broken record. It does matter.

    You keep saying that, but never explain *WHY* it matters.

    Because it does. Why should employees of McDonald's be making minimum wage while the CEO makes 1000x that? Why should the CEO of Space X
    make 1000x that of an Engineer who actually does the hard work?
    Knowing that your contributions are equal to that of senior leadership
    is important and knowing that your pay is just as important as theirs
    is also equally important.

    You are still in this belief that "Trickle Down Economics"
    actually works when it doesn't. Executive compensation is
    ridiculous when employees are getting screwed by menial raises,
    horrible benefits (or none), and PTO policies that benefit no
    one.

    So, you are under the (mistaken) belief that if the CEO was payed
    less, that money would instead be used for employee raises,
    benefits, and PTO policies? Really, you think that? Do you
    actually know *ANYTHING* about running a business? Here's a free
    clue: the money would not be used for those things.

    I do know something about running a business and no, reducing the CEO
    pay does not trickle down. Instead, it shows concern for the employee.

    Executives get their "Golden Parachutes" even if they wrong
    the company.

    Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Depends on their contract.
    Again it raises the question of why that would matter to you. It
    doesn't affect you in *ANY* *WAY*, especially if you are not even an employee of that same company. You clearly don't understand how
    things come out of certain/different "pots of money". Perhaps a
    class or two in business administration at your local community
    college would benefit you.

    There you go again, assuming... Too many years of Business
    Administration and Management classes in college have contributed to my understanding. Economics as well. My positions are my own. I
    disagree with certain business practices and agree with others.

    Executives should feel and experience the same pains the rank and
    file do.

    Why? Does the Captain of a cruise boat sleep in the same quarters
    as the rank and file passengers? Does he eat the same food? What
    you fail to understand is that the Captain (or the CEO of a company) wasn't *ALWAYS* the CEO. He worked his way up to get there, and the
    pay and benefits go up as he climbed the ladder. What a concept!

    Again, context. Should a CEO make $100mm/yr while the entry level employee makes $24K/yr? You think this is fine, your opinion, I
    disagree.

    Do you think all workers at a company, from very bottom to very top, should all make the exact same wage? What's an acceptable "gap" in
    your opinion, and again, why does it matter to you?

    No. I think each classification should make a wage compensurate
    with their skills and capabilities.

    So, at a given company, what makes you think that isn't the case?
    Do you think an assembly line worker has the skills to manage a huge corporation? Why wouldn't the person who does have those skills be
    paid a LOT more than that worker?

    Does the CEO have the skills that the assembly line worker has? No.
    Does the assembly worker have the skills of the CEO? No. Executive compensation is about retention. I've seen too many CEOs destroy a compnay to the point of bankruptcy yet are still paid to the day the company is sold off. Is this fair and equitable to the rank and file?

    For example, entry level IT
    should be paid at the lowest tier, senior at the next higher,
    specialist, etc., etc.

    That's already the case, everywhere that I know of. Eventually you
    reach the top/management/executive level.

    Companies call them tiers but the bands are wide open. Not equitable.

    Are you moving to utopian Venezuela soon, to be rid of the horrors
    of being an American citizen?

    Again with this whole Venezuela thing. So, you're telling me
    that you're perfectly fine with people like Elon Musk who founded
    Tesla and SpaceX should be worth billions while his assistant
    should only make $60K/year even though she has approval
    priviledge, goes everywhere he does, and can literaly run the
    company in his absense?

    Yes, I'm perfectly OK with that, even though that isn't entirely
    true the way you've written it. She made more than 60K, she
    certainly did NOT have approval priviledge over anything/everything,
    and it's conjecture to say she could run the company in his absence.
    Very standard Lefty tactics you employed there, but very obvious to
    those who know how you guys try to quietly steer the facts in your
    favor.

    Valid point about her position. She did have specific approval
    authority. Her complain / concern is real.

    The disparity in income is the problem.

    None of what you've said above even *ATTEMPTS* to explain why that
    is a problem, which is why you call me a broken record. I keep
    asking you to explain, but..... you dodge the question, and recite
    from the crib notes given out at a Crazy Bernie rally.

    Here's the deal: Income should ***NOT*** be equal for everyone, and
    what somebody else makes is none of your business (assuming they're
    not doing the same job as you are, of course). There should be
    large gaps in pay scales, to incentivize people to strive to move
    up. It's part of what we call "The American Dream".

    The American Dream is something written too many years ago. Now, the American Dream is just to survive.

    The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
    mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If
    everyone was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to
    advance, or even to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother?
    They'll still get paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots.
    Is that what you socialists want?

    Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll
    come to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the
    guns? ;-)

    I worked for a company where the CEO's pay went up about 75% in a year or two, the company making LOSSES both years and offering no shareholder return. They barely made a profit the following year, far less than his salary.

    The USA is a failing empire. All I hear are people from a nation on the decline, to be eclipsed and outclassed by China still touting their crappy, failed, ideology.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Fri Mar 19 04:14:27 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <60546B73.21904.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6053DEBB.49756.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on Thu Mar 18 2021 10:37 pm

    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6051EF5F.16897.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 3/17/2021 3:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:

    I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now that
    you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1% is on their
    side.

    Are YOU a CEO?

    And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there isn't a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class disparity.

    You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER argued for Communism. I don't believe that criticising
    the current ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would lead to it.

    You are not arguing for Communism, but you are arguing for an economic model that is surprisingly close (ie. a non-Marxism
    inspired flavor of Socialism, similar to the one advocated by classic Fascist groups).

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Fri Mar 19 04:19:44 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <60546CB0.21905.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6053DEBD.49757.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Dream Master on Thu Mar 18 2021 10:57 pm

    This is how Capitalism works. It indoctrinates people into being the lap-dogs for Capital and those who control it. It's n
    just an economic system, it is a set of values, it relies on people accepting Capitalist MORALITY. These arguments are not
    about economics. It's defending a morality, a morality that serves the 1%.


    For that matter, the groups that have usually defended the sort of economic model you propose have done so by packaging those
    models as a set of values to be sold to the masses.

    Ideologies are just a combination of goals to achieve and ideas for achieving them. Obviously they sustain themselves over
    moral foundations. Otherwise ideologies would consist of "I am supporting whatever works for me, even if I screw everybody
    else, because fuck it."

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Fri Mar 19 07:20:00 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <60549FD6.21907.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6053DEB5.49751.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Ahh, the old "Venezuela" gambit... Nice try, but I'm not buying
    that the only choice is between Venezuela and massive wealth
    inequality.

    Ahh, so you admit that the massive wealth equality (socialism) in Venezuela is a failed model/method of running a government. Strange
    then, why you and Dream Master would wish such a thing for the USA.

    I ask you the same thing that he won't give a straight answer about -
    why does it matter to you what a CEO makes? Why do you think that
    affects you, or is "wrong"?

    I won't speak for Dream Master but the idea that I'm wishing or
    advocating a Venezuelan type economy is a product of your
    fanciful imagination and desire to trot out talking points than
    from any rational analysis of what I've actually said.

    Uh-huh. Well, what you said is right up there on display.

    As for CEO's, wealth inequality is a major, major social problem,
    and directly affects me. It affects my nation.

    So..... just like Dream Master, you are quite sure it's a huge problem,
    and yet.... you can't just say in straight language what the problem
    actually *IS*. LOL. Talk about "talking points".

    You're both hypocrites and CNN talking-head regurgitators.


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Fri Mar 19 07:25:00 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <60549FD6.21908.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6053DEB5.49752.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
    mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If everyone
    was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to advance, or even
    to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother? They'll still get
    paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots. Is that what you socialists want?

    Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll come
    to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the guns?
    ;-)

    I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now
    that you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to
    people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1%
    is on their side.

    Your first sentence there is idiotic. LOL at the second one; I'm not confused at all about capitalism. What does confuse me is why people still think socialism is a valid solution, after seeing that it has
    failed every single place it's been tried. <BOGGLE>

    Are YOU a CEO?

    No.


    OK, so what do you have to gain from the growing disparity? I
    tend not to shill for things that don't benefit me. But I'm
    wierd like that.

    I don't have anything to gain from your perceived disparity. Why do you assume that I do? I'm not "shilling" for anything. I just don't worry
    about stuff that doesn't affect me. You should try that.

    Also, you are failing to see that the Socailist/Capitalist
    dichotomy is a spook. Reality is not a choice between Marxism
    and our specific form of Capitalism. There are many ways we
    could vary, modify, evolve things. If you can't see that, then
    you can't possibly contribute anything meaningful.

    The current model is under continuous evolution, especially so in the
    last year and a half. If you haven't seen that, you aren't paying much attention.


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Arelor on Fri Mar 19 07:36:00 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <60549FD6.21909.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <60546B73.21904.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: c168
    Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

    You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER argued for Communism. I don't believe that criticising the current ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would lead to it.

    You are not arguing for Communism, but you are arguing for an
    economic model that is surprisingly close (ie. a non-Marxism
    inspired flavor of Socialism, similar to the one advocated by
    classic Fascist groups).

    I think it's much simpler than that. He's just a member of the
    Crazy-Bernie camp, who think there's such a thing as "democratic
    socialism", and that everything should be "equal".


    ... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Dr. What on Wed Mar 17 06:23:00 2021
    @VIA: REALITY
    @MSGID: <605491B6.46750.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <604F57EE.51230.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: c1e0
    Dr. What wrote to Arelor <=-


    I've never heard Capitalism described as a "scarcity economy" other
    than when a scarcity occurs, Capitalism tends to eliminate it.

    On the contrary, a false scarcity narrative helps keep prices high for the producers. Where a false sense of scarcity fails, controlling the supply to keep prices high works equally well.




    ... If it isn't broken, I can fix it.
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Boraxman on Fri Mar 19 09:13:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6054B580.51384.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <6053DEC0.49759.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c12c
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    You are assuming that there is a very fixed amount of wealth that would
    go to wages, and that the CEO's salary is coming from what would have otherwise gone to workers.

    No. **You** assume that. By saying that the CEO makes too much, you are implying that he is taking from someone who "deserves" it more.

    What I proved was that eliminating the CEO salary would not impact the
    price of a car. So there is no claim that the CEO salary is making
    the public pay more for a car.

    What I proved was the eliminating the CEO salary would not impact the
    the wages of a worker.

    Therefore, what a CEO makes is irrelevant.


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  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dr. What on Fri Mar 19 10:58:32 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <605483D8.25173.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <6053548B.51345.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Dr. What to Gamgee on Thu Mar 18 2021 08:57 am

    And isn't that how the Roman Empire collapsed? They eliminated the middle class?

    Those who do not study (or study under Leftie "professors") history
    are doomed to repeat it.

    The Romans began clipping their coins to fund public expenses eventually debasing their currency, the denarius. They were unable to maintain their Empire, so retreated from much of the world. They then lost their middle class and were unable to pay for their military and thereafter outsourced much of their protection to mercenary groups. These groups held Rome hostage by demanding gold and silver as the denarius was inflated into oblivion and near worthless. Eventually, after centuries of economic and political turmoil, the fall of Rome occurred after it was sacked by the Visigoths who were German barbarians.

    I see many parallels with the present day mismanagement of the US economy.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Fri Mar 19 11:51:19 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <60549037.25176.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <6053DEBD.49758.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Thu Mar 18 2021 11:03 pm

    Fiat currencies are not scarce. An infinite number of dollars can be created by the Federal Reserve, as most are digitised rather than printed into existence. US dollars are as scarce as Zimbabwean dollars, which turned out not to be particularly scare when President Mugabe had the misconception he was in the possession of a money tree planeted in his back yard.

    Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that, but they don't, and arne't going to do it tomorrow.

    Trust.

    I don't think you grasp what scarcity means in relation to economics. The Federal Reserve, in conjunction with the US Treasury, have the authority to create an infinite quantity of US dollars. There is NO limit to the number of US dollars that can be created. There is a limit to ALL physical assets, rendering them scarce to some degree or another whereas there is an unlimited supply of an intangible, unbacked fiat currency.

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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Andeddu on Fri Mar 19 20:44:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <6055458E.53476.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <604F95D3.25040.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Monday 15.03.21 - 17:13, Andeddu wrote to Boraxman:

    The same is true for crypto-currencies, such as Bitcoin. One
    Bitcoin may be percieved to be worth 60k dollars, and it may
    go higher before it falls back to its intrinsic value of
    zero.

    Which reminds me, my TV airwaves are getting commercials about https://bitcoin.ca

    "Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon."

    The actual site is still in the "Coming soon.." stage. But the
    TV commericial is touting that conversion from bitcoin to cash
    is (will be) free.

    Exchanging goods and services in bitcoin seems fine and dandy,
    but I always felt that the exchange point is pretty much the
    weakest link in the chain (figuratively speaking). Imagine, you
    have a few hundred $ worth of bitcoin that you want to cash in.
    You have to "give" it to the exchange who then promises to
    deposit the cash value in your bank or pay method of your
    choice. The waiting game would be nerve-racking. And we've
    seen exchanges get hacked and lose all their coins.

    From their FAQ:

    "How do I sell Bitcoin?

    "1. Visit our Sell Cart and provide us with your bank details
    and sell amount.

    "2. We will provide you with a Bitcoin wallet address to send
    the nominated amount of Bitcoins (valid for 10 minutes).

    "3. We will electronically transfer you the $ amount
    corresponding to your order overnight. We only accept Candian
    bank accounts.

    But WHO is behind this big promotion? The prime-time TV
    commercials can't be cheap. Will this be a failed project, a
    planned disaster that will walk away with other people's coins?



    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Arelor on Sat Mar 20 11:28:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60554D04.49791.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60546B73.21904.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <60546B73.21904.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6053DEBB.49756.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on
    Thu Mar 18 2021 10:37 pm

    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6051EF5F.16897.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6051DBF6.49691.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 3/17/2021 3:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:

    I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now that
    you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1% is on their
    side.

    Are YOU a CEO?

    And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there isn't a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class disparity.

    You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER argued
    f
    or Communism. I don't believe that criticising
    the current ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would
    le
    ad to it.

    You are not arguing for Communism, but you are arguing for an economic model that is surprisingly close (ie. a non-Marxism inspired flavor of Socialism, similar to the one advocated by classic Fascist groups).

    I really don't see how it is "surprisingly close".
    I don't support the "labour theory of value", I was specifically critical of it, and actually argued that we still use it to some degree now and should dump it.
    I don't support intellectuals planning the economy. I never did.
    I don't support the dictatorship of the proletariat, or ending private property. In fact, I'm arguing for a STRONGER application of property rights.

    These basic features of Communism, I oppose, yet you say its "surprisingly close".


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Arelor on Sat Mar 20 11:36:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60554D04.49792.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60546CB0.21905.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <60546CB0.21905.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6053DEBD.49757.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Dream Master on
    Thu Mar 18 2021 10:57 pm

    This is how Capitalism works. It indoctrinates people into being the
    lap-dog
    s for Capital and those who control it. It's n
    just an economic system, it is a set of values, it relies on people
    accepting
    Capitalist MORALITY. These arguments are not
    about economics. It's defending a morality, a morality that serves the 1%.


    For that matter, the groups that have usually defended the sort of economic model you propose have done so by packaging those models as a
    set of values to be sold to the masses.

    Ideologies are just a combination of goals to achieve and ideas for achieving them. Obviously they sustain themselves over moral
    foundations. Otherwise ideologies would consist of "I am supporting whatever works for me, even if I screw everybody else, because fuck
    it."

    Well, I don't propose Marxism, and what "groups" are you talking about?

    Ideologies are frameworks which are then used to construct a narrative of truth. They are similar to religions, mental systems that can be used to get people to AGREE to a heirarchy. Marxism is an ideology. Capitalism is an ideology. Political Correctness is an ideology. To get humans to accept certain structures, we have to believe they are true, and ideology creates that belief. But it is not Truth. It doesn't have to be based on fact, we just have to agree that we make it true.

    The problem is, because they are based on a desire to set about a system, they often neglect reality. People don't construct ideologies through trial and error, observation, through studying human behaviour and predicting.

    I have certain principles, and my "system" is the application of those principles. I believe that human beings are the rightful owners of the fruits of their own labour. I believe that for an economic system to be useful, it has to, in a practical sense, sustain and elevate the wellbeing of the nations that choose to follow it. From that, comes my "system". My mind WILL change based on what works, what doesn't. I don't see Capitalist USA working. Capitalism IS a self-serving ideology. It takes the form it does because of the interests of those who are on top. If you can't see this, then God help you. If you really believe that our economic system, our ideology, is not shaped to benefit people in economic and political power, then you have an incredibly naive and rosy view of humanity.


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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Gamgee on Sat Mar 20 11:46:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60554D07.49793.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60549FD6.21907.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Gamgee wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <60549FD6.21907.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6053DEB5.49751.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    Ahh, the old "Venezuela" gambit... Nice try, but I'm not buying
    that the only choice is between Venezuela and massive wealth
    inequality.

    Ahh, so you admit that the massive wealth equality (socialism) in Venezuela is a failed model/method of running a government. Strange
    then, why you and Dream Master would wish such a thing for the USA.

    I ask you the same thing that he won't give a straight answer about -
    why does it matter to you what a CEO makes? Why do you think that
    affects you, or is "wrong"?

    I won't speak for Dream Master but the idea that I'm wishing or
    advocating a Venezuelan type economy is a product of your
    fanciful imagination and desire to trot out talking points than
    from any rational analysis of what I've actually said.

    Uh-huh. Well, what you said is right up there on display.

    OK, quote where I've advocated for it.

    As for CEO's, wealth inequality is a major, major social problem,
    and directly affects me. It affects my nation.

    So..... just like Dream Master, you are quite sure it's a huge problem, and yet.... you can't just say in straight language what the problem actually *IS*. LOL. Talk about "talking points".

    You're both hypocrites and CNN talking-head regurgitators.

    I've said what the problem is. The problem is partly the pattern of property rights that we have in our system, and the resultant decision making that comes from that pattern of property rights.

    For you to call me a "CNN talking-head regurgitator", well, I don't know what to say. The level of confusion here is unbelievable. I'm the LAST person to support CNN and the mainstream establishment.

    Take some time to come up with an actual argument.


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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Gamgee on Sat Mar 20 11:59:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60554D09.49794.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60549FD6.21908.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Gamgee wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <60549FD6.21908.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6053DEB5.49752.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Gamgee <=-

    The only thing stopping anyone from being the next Elon Musk is.... themselves. Granted, it's not quite that simple, but you get what I
    mean. The *CHANCE* is there for anyone to break through. If everyone
    was "equal", nobody would give a shit about trying to advance, or even
    to do a decent job at what they do. Why bother? They'll still get
    paid the same. People turn into zombies/robots. Is that what you socialists want?

    Fuck that. That's not the American way, and never will be. It'll come
    to civil war before that happens, and guess who's got all the guns?
    ;-)

    I'm sure the CEO's are going to throw you dollars your way, now
    that you are batting for them. This is what Capitalism does to
    people, confused the hell out of them so that they think the 1%
    is on their side.

    Your first sentence there is idiotic. LOL at the second one; I'm not confused at all about capitalism. What does confuse me is why people still think socialism is a valid solution, after seeing that it has
    failed every single place it's been tried. <BOGGLE>

    Are YOU a CEO?

    No.


    OK, so what do you have to gain from the growing disparity? I
    tend not to shill for things that don't benefit me. But I'm
    wierd like that.

    I don't have anything to gain from your perceived disparity. Why do
    you assume that I do? I'm not "shilling" for anything. I just don't worry about stuff that doesn't affect me. You should try that.

    But it DOES affect me. It is a clear, tangible negative consequence on my nations wellbeing and on social stability.

    If you don't care, then fine. I think the well being of the nation at large trumps the need of a tiny minority to satisfy their avarice, but hey, I'm weird like that.

    Also, you are failing to see that the Socailist/Capitalist
    dichotomy is a spook. Reality is not a choice between Marxism
    and our specific form of Capitalism. There are many ways we
    could vary, modify, evolve things. If you can't see that, then
    you can't possibly contribute anything meaningful.

    The current model is under continuous evolution, especially so in the
    last year and a half. If you haven't seen that, you aren't paying much attention.


    Perhaps, but I'm a little sceptical of Biden and the Democrats fixing anything, and I to recall this COVID-19 pandemic that killed half a million people, cost many their livelihood. It will be business as usual, vested interests gutting the nation, no true recovery, as there was no true recovery from 2008. This is how I know things are in decline. Each crisis seems to just create weakness. You are losing your freedom, your right to speak, your privacy, you will lose economic prosperity (Trump, whatever he managed to acheive, is a short term delay in the decline), your status as a world superpower, your creativity.

    I think Americans are so used to their decline, they don't know what its like elsewhere now. We don't have tent cities in Australia, or massive COVID deaths, or excrement in the streets, or never ending riots.

    Economics is everything. It makes or breaks nations. You'll rarely, if ever, see a nation on the rise which doesn't have a good economy, or one on the decline which doesn't have a broken one. Failed economic systems, that is, one which failed to support the people have led to catastrophes before.

    So think for a moment, is your system working for the PEOPLE. If it only works for CEOs, then its a dud.



    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dr. What on Sat Mar 20 12:07:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60554D0B.49795.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6054B580.51384.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6054B580.51384.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <6053DEC0.49759.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    You are assuming that there is a very fixed amount of wealth that would
    go to wages, and that the CEO's salary is coming from what would have otherwise gone to workers.

    No. **You** assume that. By saying that the CEO makes too much, you
    are implying that he is taking from someone who "deserves" it more.

    What I proved was that eliminating the CEO salary would not impact the price of a car. So there is no claim that the CEO salary is making
    the public pay more for a car.

    What I proved was the eliminating the CEO salary would not impact the
    the wages of a worker.

    Therefore, what a CEO makes is irrelevant.

    But I never argued that a workers wages should be taken from the CEOs!!!

    As I said, I worked for a company where the CEO's salary, within a year or two, almost doubled, DESPITE the company losing money. If I cannot justify doubling my salary, how is that justified?

    The argument is the wealth disparity, that the CEO's wages are rising far faster than the employees. That is a valid criticism, as wealth should go to producers. The disparity is not because CEO's are 10x more productive, and everyone else isn't, its due to them having advantages of how their salary is set, that other employeed labourers don't have.

    To say its irrelevant isn't true. It is relevant. It's a factor in wealth disparity, its symptomatic. You could argue that what hedge fund companies make, is irrelevant. That what property speculators make, is irrelevant. You could argue for each and every person in the proverbial 1% that it is irrelevant, and therefore argue that wealth disparity is irrelevant.

    Yet wealth disparity is a major social problem, and a major economic one too. Therefore it MUST be relevant.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Andeddu on Sat Mar 20 12:11:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60554D0D.49796.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60549037.25176.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: 9258
    Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <60549037.25176.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <6053DEBD.49758.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
    Thu Mar 18 2021 11:03 pm

    Fiat currencies are not scarce. An infinite number of dollars can be created by the Federal Reserve, as most are digitised rather than printed into existence. US dollars are as scarce as Zimbabwean dollars, which turned out not to be particularly scare when President Mugabe had the misconception he was in the possession of a money tree planeted in his back yard.

    Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that, but they don't, and arne't going to do it tomorrow.

    Trust.

    I don't think you grasp what scarcity means in relation to economics.
    The Federal Reserve, in conjunction with the US Treasury, have the authority to create an infinite quantity of US dollars. There is NO
    limit to the number of US dollars that can be created. There is a limit
    to ALL physical assets, rendering them scarce to some degree or another whereas there is an unlimited supply of an intangible, unbacked fiat currency.

    But they DON'T create an infinite amount. That theoretically they could is irrelvant. They DON'T. They WON'T. The quantity of US dollars is ALWAYS limited. The US dollar is, for all intents and purposes, limited in supply, and that is what matters. The entire system is predicated on them not doing that, and we all know they won't.

    Are you seriously suggesting there is a possibility they will issue an infinite quantity?

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Mar 20 12:13:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60554D0F.49797.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <605491B6.46750.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @TZ: 9258
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Dr. What <=-

    @MSGID: <605491B6.46750.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <604F57EE.51230.dove-general@dmine.net>
    Dr. What wrote to Arelor <=-


    I've never heard Capitalism described as a "scarcity economy" other
    than when a scarcity occurs, Capitalism tends to eliminate it.

    On the contrary, a false scarcity narrative helps keep prices high for
    the producers. Where a false sense of scarcity fails, controlling the supply to keep prices high works equally well.

    No one would ever make supply scarce to keep prices up, would they? /sarcasm off



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  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ogg on Sat Mar 20 06:35:15 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <6055DDF3.21944.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
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    @TZ: c168
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Fri Mar 19 2021 08:44 pm

    Exchanging goods and services in bitcoin seems fine and dandy,
    but I always felt that the exchange point is pretty much the
    weakest link in the chain (figuratively speaking). Imagine, you
    have a few hundred $ worth of bitcoin that you want to cash in.
    You have to "give" it to the exchange who then promises to
    deposit the cash value in your bank or pay method of your
    choice. The waiting game would be nerve-racking. And we've
    seen exchanges get hacked and lose all their coins.


    The point of the whole thing is that if it becoems popular, you won't need to sell your Bitcoin for dollar so often.

    You would come to my store and buy vitamines with Bitcoin. Then I would spend those bitcoins by paying my providers directly
    with them.

    Right now we are following a model according to which Bitcoin is a fancy way of transfering and storing dollar or euro, which
    frankly, does not work for me.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sat Mar 20 06:42:49 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <6055DFB9.21945.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <60554D04.49791.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on Sat Mar 20 2021 11:28 am

    I really don't see how it is "surprisingly close".
    I don't support the "labour theory of value", I was specifically critical of it, and actually argued that we still use it to
    some degree now and should dump it.
    I don't support intellectuals planning the economy. I never did.
    I don't support the dictatorship of the proletariat, or ending private property. In fact, I'm arguing for a STRONGER
    application of property rights.

    These basic features of Communism, I oppose, yet you say its "surprisingly close".


    I say they are surprisingly close because those models get spawned from different points of view and goals, but end up
    devolving into societies that are different by the rethoric they carry more than anything else.

    The difference between Rivera's Phalanx and Catalonian anarcho-communists was defined by who they hated mainly XD. Rivera
    wanted to organize the economy in horizontal cooperatives/unions For God and Country, while revolutionary Catalonians and their
    socialist allies wanted to do the same For Screwing Burgoises.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sat Mar 20 06:48:48 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <6055E120.21946.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <60554D04.49792.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on Sat Mar 20 2021 11:36 am

    Well, I don't propose Marxism, and what "groups" are you talking about?

    Good you are not proposing Marxism.

    The main group I am thinking about is the originary Phalanx in Spain. That would be early 20th Century. The History of Phalanx
    is a bit complex and some people argue that it departed its ideological roots to become a classical military dictatorship, but
    I disgress.

    Then there was Spanish National Alliance, the Spanish Patriotic Knot, and a couple of small political parties that claim to
    follow Rivera's ways. These are more modern and a lot of them still exist in a way or another. I think National Alliance was
    declared a terrorist organitation because they were found hoarding explosives though.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sat Mar 20 06:55:04 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <6055E298.21947.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <60554D0B.49795.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Dr. What on Sat Mar 20 2021 12:07 pm

    Yet wealth disparity is a major social problem, and a major economic one too. Therefore it MUST be relevant.

    Wealth disparity is not a problem unlĄess a sizeable percentage of the people at the bottom is really screwed, in my opinion.

    Durign the 2008/9 crisis we had a lot of people crying against wealth disparity. Usually it was people who was making less
    money than they used to, but they still had more than one car in the family and had subscriptions to a lot of entertaining
    services, gymn, and many of the wonders of the modern world. Many of this people had legit complaints, but a good bunch of them
    stinked envy. "This guy has a bigger car than I do, so let's screw him" etc.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sat Mar 20 07:05:04 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <6055E4F0.21948.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <60554D0D.49796.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sat Mar 20 2021 12:11 pm

    I don't think you grasp what scarcity means in relation to economics. The Federal Reserve, in conjunction with the US Treasury, have the authority to create an infinite quantity of US dolla
    There is NO
    limit to the number of US dollars that can be created. There is a limit to ALL physical assets, rendering them scarce to some degree or another whereas there is an unlimited supply of an
    intangible, unbacked fiat currency.

    But they DON'T create an infinite amount. That theoretically they could is irrelvant. They DON'T. They WON'T. The quanti
    of US dollars is ALWAYS limited. The US dollar is, for all intents and purposes, limited in supply, and that is what matter
    The entire system is predicated on them not doing that, and we all know they won't.

    Are you seriously suggesting there is a possibility they will issue an infinite quantity?


    In mathematics, infinity is not a number. It is a descriptor for an arbitrary big value that is not meaningful as a number.

    Draghi and friends have been pumping arbitrarily big ammounts of EUR for quite a long time already. The ammount is still
    meaningful as a number but they keep pumping it up.

    If I am going to purchase euro, the fact I know the relevant institutions are producing arbitrarily big values of it (even if
    they are not exactly infinite) and that they may keep doing the same in the future affects my view on the value of those euro.

    In fact euro can be produced in infinite supply,the people controlling euro can plunge it into total irrelevance at
    their will, and we only have their promise they won't. It is like Damocles' Sword. They "don't do it now" but may decide to go
    Franco style in a decade and devalue it by 10 times its value when they see fit.

    Which sucks because inflation always hit low income people first. That is who the speed of money works. Essentials always get
    inflated first, then everything else.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Boraxman on Sat Mar 20 09:04:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6055F871.51411.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <60554D0B.49795.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c12c
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    But I never argued that a workers wages should be taken from the
    CEOs!!!

    The argument is the wealth disparity, that the CEO's wages are rising
    far faster than the employees.

    You just contradicted yourself.

    The basis for any "wealth disparity" argument is that those who make more "take" from those who make less.

    And that is nothing more than a strawman for jealousy. Those who **think** that they are better are jealous
    of those who actually are.


    ... Women prefer the simple things in life...MEN!
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    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Andeddu on Sat Mar 20 09:16:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6055F871.51413.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <60549037.25176.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: c12c
    Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-

    I don't think you grasp what scarcity means in relation to economics.
    The Federal Reserve, in conjunction with the US Treasury, have the authority to create an infinite quantity of US dollars. There is NO
    limit to the number of US dollars that can be created.

    Lefties have no concept of economics.

    In theory you are correct. In reality you are utterly wrong.

    Money has value only in that it can purchase something. Creating more money does not mean people
    get more. It means that the money is worth less. It's called "inflation".

    There is a limit to how many dollars can be created because at a certain point, the dollar becomes
    worthless.


    ... Your ex just called....she's with the IRS now.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Sat Mar 20 12:12:49 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <6055E6C1.25218.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <6055458E.53476.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Fri Mar 19 2021 08:44 pm

    But WHO is behind this big promotion? The prime-time TV
    commercials can't be cheap. Will this be a failed project, a
    planned disaster that will walk away with other people's coins?


    I am skeptical about Bitcoin. I mean, cryptos are a great speculative asset class and there sure is a lot of money that can be made in that market. For instance, if I had invested in Bitcoin in March 2020, I would have made a 400% return on my investment which would have been pretty sweet. My problem is that this can be compared to Tulip Mania, and I don't want to be the one left 'hodling' worthless digital crap if the market crashes. It's not a store of value and it's not digital gold. There are going to be winners and losers and those that fail to realise their gains prior to a major economic event are going to lose everything.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Sat Mar 20 12:51:05 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <6055EFB9.25219.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <60554D0D.49796.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sat Mar 20 2021 12:11 pm

    I don't think you grasp what scarcity means in relation to economics. The Federal Reserve, in conjunction with the US Treasury, have the authority to create an infinite quantity of US dollars. There is NO limit to the number of US dollars that can be created. There is a limit to ALL physical assets, rendering them scarce to some degree or another whereas there is an unlimited supply of an intangible, unbacked fiat currency.

    But they DON'T create an infinite amount. That theoretically they could is irrelvant. They DON'T. They WON'T. The quantity of US dollars is ALWAYS limited. The US dollar is, for all intents and purposes, limited in supply, and that is what matters. The entire system is predicated on them not doing that, and we all know they won't.

    Are you seriously suggesting there is a possibility they will issue an infinite quantity?

    Federal Reserve President Neel Kashkari was interviewed in 2020 on 60 Mnutes by CBS News during the midst of the pandemic.

    Interviewer: Can you characterise everything that the Fed has done this past week as essentially flooding the system with money?

    Kashkari: Yes, exactly.

    Interviewer: And there's no end to your ability do to that?

    Kashkari: There's no end to our ability to do that.

    The Federal Reserve has admitted serval times that they were ready and willing to provide unlimited liquidity in the form of money printing.

    There is no fixed limit on fiat currencies, they are not scarce. If you can't grasp that simple concept, you have not studied economics. There is NO FIXED limit on an unbacked currency. There is a limited amount of resources on this planet which is why we talk about scarcity, but there is NO LIMIT on a currency that is not backed by a physical asset. There is no HARD upper limit, which is why it is NOT scarce. The Zimbabewan central bank churned-out trillions of dollars and placed them into circulation, which became quadrillions, which became septillions before the entire economy collapsed and the currency became unusable.

    There is no theoretical limit to the number of fiat currency units that can be created and governments can print, and print, and print until hyperinflation takes hold. This is a fundamental aspect of economics and I am surprised that you are even attempting to dispute it.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Nopants@VERT/CITBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Fri Mar 19 09:10:00 2021
    @VIA: CITBBS
    @MSGID: <60546A88.1321.dove-gen@crackintimebbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <605428DC.1172.dove-gen@crackintimebbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: c12c
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Mar 12 2021 06:22 am

    I used to pull cable at Comdisco disaster recovery centers. Between the ladders and physical work and the calm of punching down 25 pair cable, it was one of the overall rewarding job experiences I had as well. Glad to hear it was able to keep your head in the right space. I feel it did the same for me.

    -nopants

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ My Brand-New BBS
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Sat Mar 20 17:45:55 2021
    @VIA: BBSESINF
    @MSGID: <60567B23.3862.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @REPLY: <6055E6C1.25218.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Andeddu to Ogg on Sat Mar 20 2021 12:12 pm

    I am skeptical about Bitcoin. I mean, cryptos are a great speculative asset class and there sure is a lot of money that can be made in that market. For instance, if I had invested in Bitcoin in March 2020, I would have made a 400% return on my investment which would have been pretty sweet. My problem is that this can be compared to Tulip Mania, and I don't want to be the one

    if i still had my bitcoin wallet from when it all started out, i could buy and sell you fuckers!
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Arelor on Sat Mar 20 18:44:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <60567C4E.53513.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <6055DDF3.21944.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Saturday 20.03.21 - 06:35, your wrote to me:

    ...if it becoems popular, you won't need to sell your
    Bitcoin for dollar so often.

    You would come to my store and buy vitamines with Bitcoin.
    Then I would spend those bitcoins by paying my providers
    directly with them.

    Yes, I get that. The bitcoin is fine circulating within its own
    realm. My modest stash in Paypal operates like that. People pay
    into my PP account, and I use the funds in there to pay for
    things I would need.

    A bitcoin stash is no good if I need cash for food or other
    necessities.

    But bitcoin ATMs seem to be taking off rapidly everywhere. There
    are over 700 in Ontario alone. Almost 14,500 in USA.

    See https://coinatmradar.com/

    I was imagining having an ATM at my shop, but the upfront cost
    for the machine for either ownership/rental is pretty high.

    Meanhile, the conversion charges with these machines is anywhere
    from 8% to 15%. It certainly seems designed to discourage
    conversions, that's for sure.

    Right now we are following a model according to which
    Bitcoin is a fancy way of transfering and storing dollar or
    euro, which frankly, does not work for me.

    Until there are suppliers in my industry that will accept
    bitcoin, there is no point in accepting bitcoin payments from my
    customers. Bottom line, I need cash to pay for inventory.

    It is costing people 8% - 15% for using the ATMs. I suppose the
    exchanges charge less.

    Do you process bitcoin at your shop, or is it only with your
    online presence?

    For the last 2 months, my bank was operating as "by appointment
    only". I said, screw that. I haven't stepped into the bank to
    deposit the paper money for that time. I simply paid a couple of
    my suppliers with cash. Now, my bank is back open to the walk-
    in public. I had amassed a handful of cheques that had no other
    way to get deposited if I stayed home. :( And.. I've no doubt
    stretched the patience of several of my creditors during that
    time.

    If it wasn't for the cheques, I was thinking of avoiding the
    bank for a while longer - to make a point. The only other
    problem was how to "convert" the cash so that it is accessible
    for paying bills. I was prepared to GIVE people my accumulated
    cash for an eTransfer exchange. I think eTransfer is pretty
    cool. By sending an eTransfer to one of my email addresses, the
    money gets deposited into my bank account automatically (no
    passphrases required.) Once confirmed, I would simply hand over
    the equivalent in cash.

    Lots of fun.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Sat Mar 20 22:06:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <6056AD7B.53528.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <60567B23.3862.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello MRO!

    ** On Saturday 20.03.21 - 17:45, MRO wrote to Andeddu:

    if i still had my bitcoin wallet from when it all started out, i could buy and sell you fuckers! -+-

    Aww.. what's the story on that wallet?

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
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    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ogg on Sun Mar 21 02:44:14 2021
    @VIA: BBSESINF
    @MSGID: <6056F94E.3874.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @REPLY: <60567C4E.53513.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Arelor on Sat Mar 20 2021 06:44 pm

    my suppliers with cash. Now, my bank is back open to the walk-
    in public. I had amassed a handful of cheques that had no other
    way to get deposited if I stayed home. :( And.. I've no doubt
    stretched the patience of several of my creditors during that
    time.

    cant you take a photo of a check and have it deposit? that's been around a long time.

    regarding bitcoin, for me getting it and spending it has been a pain in the ass. someone got my cc number from coinbase and bought a bunch of bullshit.
    first time my cc number got stolen.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ogg on Sun Mar 21 02:49:45 2021
    @VIA: BBSESINF
    @MSGID: <6056FA99.3875.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @REPLY: <6056AD7B.53528.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to MRO on Sat Mar 20 2021 10:06 pm

    Hello MRO!

    ** On Saturday 20.03.21 - 17:45, MRO wrote to Andeddu:

    if i still had my bitcoin wallet from when it all started out, i could buy and sell you fuckers! -+-

    Aww.. what's the story on that wallet?

    i didnt save it and i didnt think bitcoin would blow up like it did.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Arelor on Sun Mar 21 20:49:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60571C51.49840.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6055E120.21946.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6055E120.21946.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <60554D04.49792.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on
    Sat Mar 20 2021 11:36 am

    Well, I don't propose Marxism, and what "groups" are you talking about?

    Good you are not proposing Marxism.

    The main group I am thinking about is the originary Phalanx in Spain.
    That would be early 20th Century. The History of Phalanx is a bit
    complex and some people argue that it departed its ideological roots to become a classical military dictatorship, but I disgress.

    Then there was Spanish National Alliance, the Spanish Patriotic Knot,
    and a couple of small political parties that claim to follow Rivera's ways. These are more modern and a lot of them still exist in a way or another. I think National Alliance was declared a terrorist
    organitation because they were found hoarding explosives though.

    Not Marxism. But any threat to the primacy of Capital is framed as Marxism. Marxism is the boogeyman that our ruling elite use in order to stifle any discussion, thought or questioning.

    It is evident here, in the way that people are resorting to using that boogeyman the moment you question the current systm.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Arelor on Sun Mar 21 21:01:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60571C53.49841.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6055E298.21947.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6055E298.21947.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <60554D0B.49795.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Dr. What on
    Sat Mar 20 2021 12:07 pm

    Yet wealth disparity is a major social problem, and a major economic one
    too.
    Therefore it MUST be relevant.

    Wealth disparity is not a problem unlşess a sizeable percentage of the people at the bottom is really screwed, in my opinion.

    Durign the 2008/9 crisis we had a lot of people crying against wealth disparity. Usually it was people who was making less money than they
    used to, but they still had more than one car in the family and had subscriptions to a lot of entertaining services, gymn, and many of the wonders of the modern world. Many of this people had legit complaints,
    but a good bunch of them stinked envy. "This guy has a bigger car than
    I do, so let's screw him" etc.


    Wealth disparity leads to the bottom portion being screwed. You can't one one without the other. It leads to power imbalance, and power imbalance leads to oppression and screwing people over.

    Humans never learn. Every multicultural society failed. Every society with a severe difference in wealth and power went bad. I'm tired of hearing complex arguments which really amount to "its different this time".

    It's not. It's evidently not.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dr. What on Sun Mar 21 21:04:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60571C56.49842.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6055F871.51411.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6055F871.51411.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <60554D0B.49795.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    But I never argued that a workers wages should be taken from the
    CEOs!!!

    The argument is the wealth disparity, that the CEO's wages are rising
    far faster than the employees.

    You just contradicted yourself.

    The basis for any "wealth disparity" argument is that those who make
    more "take" from those who make less.

    No, its not the whole picture. It affects society in other ways. It affects politics. It leads to hoarding. It leads to power imbalance. It leads to fewer and fewer people controlling resources, exploitation.

    It's not just that he got a dollar that I could have.

    And that is nothing more than a strawman for jealousy. Those who **think** that they are better are jealous
    of those who actually are.

    That is the standard 'talking point', that it is jealousy.

    I don't buy it. There are many valid concerns, and well researched writings on the topic.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Andeddu on Sun Mar 21 21:11:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60571C58.49843.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6055EFB9.25219.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: 9258
    Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6055EFB9.25219.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <60554D0D.49796.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
    Sat Mar 20 2021 12:11 pm

    I don't think you grasp what scarcity means in relation to economics. The Federal Reserve, in conjunction with the US Treasury, have the authority to create an infinite quantity of US dollars. There is NO limit to the number of US dollars that can be created. There is a limit to ALL physical assets, rendering them scarce to some degree or another whereas there is an unlimited supply of an intangible, unbacked fiat currency.

    But they DON'T create an infinite amount. That theoretically they could is irrelvant. They DON'T. They WON'T. The quantity of US dollars is ALWAYS limited. The US dollar is, for all intents and purposes, limited in supply, and that is what matters. The entire system is predicated on them not doing that, and we all know they won't.

    Are you seriously suggesting there is a possibility they will issue an infinite quantity?

    Federal Reserve President Neel Kashkari was interviewed in 2020 on 60 Mnutes by CBS News during the midst of the pandemic.

    Interviewer: Can you characterise everything that the Fed has done this past week as essentially flooding the system with money?

    Kashkari: Yes, exactly.

    Interviewer: And there's no end to your ability do to that?

    Kashkari: There's no end to our ability to do that.

    The Federal Reserve has admitted serval times that they were ready and willing to provide unlimited liquidity in the form of money printing.

    There is no fixed limit on fiat currencies, they are not scarce. If you can't grasp that simple concept, you have not studied economics. There
    is NO FIXED limit on an unbacked currency. There is a limited amount of resources on this planet which is why we talk about scarcity, but there
    is NO LIMIT on a currency that is not backed by a physical asset. There
    is no HARD upper limit, which is why it is NOT scarce. The Zimbabewan central bank churned-out trillions of dollars and placed them into circulation, which became quadrillions, which became septillions before the entire economy collapsed and the currency became unusable.

    There is no theoretical limit to the number of fiat currency units that can be created and governments can print, and print, and print until hyperinflation takes hold. This is a fundamental aspect of economics
    and I am surprised that you are even attempting to dispute it.

    I think we are talking past each other.

    I accept fully that there is no fixed upper limit on the amount that can be issued.

    I am saying that TODAY there is. Tomorrow, there will be.

    Remember, the argument was about the value of currency. Currency maintains value because we can use it to buy things, and because you can't just pluck it out of thin air.

    For pretty much everyone that is true. If currency is NOT scarce, then why the hell am I bothering to go to work to try to earn it? Why are not all loans just granted automatically?

    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ogg on Sun Mar 21 06:35:00 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <60572F64.21990.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
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    @TZ: c168
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Arelor on Sat Mar 20 2021 06:44 pm

    Do you process bitcoin at your shop, or is it only with your
    online presence?

    Yes, I do.

    Even the clinit I work for accepts bitcoin. There is a QR code with a payment address so you can deliver payments to it from
    your mobile if need be. Not that it ever gets used, because or customers are insurance companies rather than patients, and
    insurance companies don't pay from their mobile phone.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Dr. What on Sun Mar 21 12:17:50 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <6057396E.25258.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
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    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Dr. What to Andeddu on Sat Mar 20 2021 09:16 am

    Lefties have no concept of economics.

    In theory you are correct. In reality you are utterly wrong.

    Money has value only in that it can purchase something. Creating more money does not mean people
    get more. It means that the money is worth less. It's called "inflation".

    There is a limit to how many dollars can be created because at a certain point, the dollar becomes
    worthless.

    Yes, the limit is dictated by hyperinflation and the resultant monetary collapse. Once there is no confidence in the currency and it can no longer be exchanged for goods and services, it has to be scrapped.

    And yes, there does exist a number of people who appear to believe in alchemy insofar that it is possible to create something out of nothing.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to MRO on Sun Mar 21 12:36:08 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <60573DB8.25260.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
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    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: MRO to Andeddu on Sat Mar 20 2021 05:45 pm

    if i still had my bitcoin wallet from when it all started out, i could buy and sell you fuckers!

    If you had 100 dollars worth of Bitcoin back in 2009 and sold it today, you'd have around 50 million dollars. Mind boggling.

    I see a lot of horror stories of people losing their Bitcoin wallets and hard disc drives with old Bitcoin that's now worth stupid money.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Ogg on Sun Mar 21 07:28:00 2021
    @VIA: REALITY
    @MSGID: <60575E08.46835.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <60567C4E.53513.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: c1e0
    Subject: Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    @MSGID: <60575E08.46835.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <60567C4E.53513.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: c1e0
    Ogg wrote to Arelor <=-

    realm. My modest stash in Paypal operates like that. People pay
    into my PP account, and I use the funds in there to pay for
    things I would need.

    I loved PayPal, for a time. I'd put some money into it, buy a film camera. Clean it up, shoot a couple of rolls, sell it for a profit, put the profit back into PayPal. Buy another one, repeat. I parlayed $25 into $400 that way and got to play with some cool cameras in the process.

    Right now we are following a model according to which
    Bitcoin is a fancy way of transfering and storing dollar or
    euro, which frankly, does not work for me.

    The use of Bitcoin as a transfer medium is interesting - overseas money transfers are expensive and take a long time.

    my suppliers with cash. Now, my bank is back open to the walk-
    in public. I had amassed a handful of cheques that had no other
    way to get deposited if I stayed home. :( And.. I've no doubt
    stretched the patience of several of my creditors during that
    time.

    I bank with USAA, they don't have any physical branches. I can deposit
    checks using a phone app, they'll mail cashier's checks, and I sold a car using a bank wire that took 15 minutes to process from another USAA
    customer.





    If it wasn't for the cheques, I was thinking of avoiding the
    bank for a while longer - to make a point. The only other
    problem was how to "convert" the cash so that it is accessible
    for paying bills. I was prepared to GIVE people my accumulated
    cash for an eTransfer exchange. I think eTransfer is pretty
    cool. By sending an eTransfer to one of my email addresses, the
    money gets deposited into my bank account automatically (no
    passphrases required.) Once confirmed, I would simply hand over
    the equivalent in cash.

    Lots of fun.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

    ... Display your talent
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
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  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Arelor on Sun Mar 21 09:40:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <60574D75.53542.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <60572F64.21990.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Sunday 21.03.21 - 06:35, Arelor wrote to Ogg:

    Do you process bitcoin at your shop, or is it only with your
    online presence?

    Yes, I do.

    So.. how does that work? Do you just have a printed QR code in
    the store that people can "scan"?

    Even the clinit I work for accepts bitcoin. There is a QR
    code with a payment address so you can deliver payments to
    it from your mobile if need be. Not that it ever gets used,
    because or customers are insurance companies rather than
    patients, and insurance companies don't pay from their
    mobile phone.

    Does that clinit just use the online bitcoin button at your site
    to when paying you? Doesn't the online button go through an
    exchange server?


    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andeddu on Sun Mar 21 14:09:37 2021
    @VIA: BBSESINF
    @MSGID: <605799F1.3898.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @REPLY: <60573DB8.25260.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Andeddu to MRO on Sun Mar 21 2021 12:36 pm

    If you had 100 dollars worth of Bitcoin back in 2009 and sold it today, you'd have around 50 million dollars. Mind boggling.

    I see a lot of horror stories of people losing their Bitcoin wallets and hard disc drives with old Bitcoin that's now worth stupid money.


    https://www.barstoolbets.com/blogs/3238063/do-you-think-this-guy-regrets-turning-down-50000-btc-for-a-dollar13-million-home-purchase-now-worth-dollar1.65-billion

    or google man who refused house payment with bitcoin

    he turned it down and could have been a billionaire now
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ogg on Sun Mar 21 14:44:07 2021
    @VIA: BBSESINF
    @MSGID: <6057A207.3901.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @REPLY: <60574D75.53542.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Arelor on Sun Mar 21 2021 09:40 am

    Does that clinit just use the online bitcoin button at your site
    to when paying you? Doesn't the online button go through an
    exchange server?

    you send your bitcoin to that person's bitcoin address. there's no charges until you try to switch it back to your countries currency.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ogg on Sun Mar 21 14:16:50 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <60579BA2.22008.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
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    @TZ: c168
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Arelor on Sun Mar 21 2021 09:40 am

    So.. how does that work? Do you just have a printed QR code in
    the store that people can "scan"?


    In the case of the store, I can generate a QR code from a spare smartphone and then customers can scan it with theirs.

    The clinic just has a poster with the QR address printed on it. The receptionist has a read-only wallet from which to confirm the payment is valid, in the workstation.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Andeddu on Sun Mar 21 16:41:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <6057B73C.53557.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <60573DB8.25260.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Sunday 21.03.21 - 12:36, Andeddu wrote to MRO:

    If you had 100 dollars worth of Bitcoin back in 2009 and
    sold it today, you'd have around 50 million dollars. Mind
    boggling.

    But do you think you could trust an exchange to convert and
    deliver that 50 million in cash? :/ You would have to give
    your coins to the exchange, and then WAIT for the cash delivery.
    They could claim something went wrong and never deliver.

    I see a lot of horror stories of people losing their Bitcoin
    wallets and hard disc drives with old Bitcoin that's now
    worth stupid money.

    I have misremembered my passwords to simple accounts and have
    had to reset them to new ones. If I had a bitcoin wallet, I
    could imagine that I could easily fit into the category of the
    people losing access to their wallets.


    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Sun Mar 21 17:14:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <6057B73C.53558.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <6056F94E.3874.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello MRO!

    ..I had amassed a handful of cheques that had no other
    way to get deposited if I stayed home. :(

    cant you take a photo of a check and have it deposit? that's
    been around a long time.

    Yes.. the bank has an app for that purpose. I don't think my
    phone would support it. The phone simply stopped working with
    Googleplay following some kind of GoogelPlay or Playstore update
    - which I now regret allowing. I've installed Telegram with the
    direct .APK file. But I can't find the .APK file for my bank's
    app to try. If someone could send me that .APK then I could see
    if it is doable. OH... nevermind, I found the app at
    apktovi.com. Trying it now.. Nope, it comes back "Unable to
    install this app"

    Alternatively, I can just drop off the cheques in the overnight
    box at the bank. I'm ok doing that with cheques, but not with
    cash.

    regarding bitcoin, for me getting it and spending it has
    been a pain in the ass. someone got my cc number from
    coinbase and bought a bunch of bullshit. first time my cc
    number got stolen.

    That's not too good at all. Nowadays most credit cards can be
    suspended or disabled while you don't expect anyone to use them.



    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
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    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Andeddu on Sun Mar 21 19:21:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <6057D521.53561.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <6055E6C1.25218.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Saturday 20.03.21 - 12:12, Andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    I am skeptical about Bitcoin. I mean, cryptos are a great
    speculative asset class and there sure is a lot of money
    that can be made in that market. For instance, if I had
    invested in Bitcoin in March 2020, I would have made a 400%
    return on my investment which would have been pretty sweet.

    About a month ago, I subscribed to a stock investment
    newsletter. It delivers BUY NOW suggestions, and other
    interesting info every day. The idea is to follow the
    recommendations (virtually) and see where I would be based on
    the imaginary $s allocated for that.

    Perhaps I should share the info here and see what y'all think.

    My problem is that this can be compared to Tulip Mania, and
    I don't want to be the one left 'hodling' worthless digital
    crap if the market crashes. It's not a store of value and
    it's not digital gold. There are going to be winners and
    losers and those that fail to realise their gains prior to a
    major economic event are going to lose everything.

    Thought it was rather fickle how stock can plummet based on a
    rumour or bad press.

    One of the tips in the newsletter is to watch for iPhone
    launches. Stock always climbs without fail after one of those.

    --
    ../|ug

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
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    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Ogg on Sun Mar 21 23:56:52 2021
    @VIA: BBSESINF
    @MSGID: <60582394.3911.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @REPLY: <6057B73C.53558.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to MRO on Sun Mar 21 2021 05:14 pm

    Yes.. the bank has an app for that purpose. I don't think my
    phone would support it. The phone simply stopped working with
    Googleplay following some kind of GoogelPlay or Playstore update
    - which I now regret allowing. I've installed Telegram with the
    direct .APK file. But I can't find the .APK file for my bank's

    roll back your google play store app by choosing uninstall


    That's not too good at all. Nowadays most credit cards can be
    suspended or disabled while you don't expect anyone to use them.


    only a few of my CC's have that feature. i wish they all did.
    i would love to toggle them on with my device.
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Arelor on Sun Mar 21 22:44:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <605815B8.53569.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <60579BA2.22008.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Sunday 21.03.21 - 14:16, you wrote to me:

    In the case of the store, I can generate a QR code from a
    spare smartphone and then customers can scan it with theirs.

    My mobile service blocks me from accessing a variety of torrent
    trackers. Likewise, I can imagine that they have the power to
    disable bitcoin transactions if there was a government decree to
    do so.

    The clinic just has a poster with the QR address printed on
    it. The receptionist has a read-only wallet from which to
    confirm the payment is valid, in the workstation.

    OH.. so you operate with TWO wallets? I can see the importance
    of a clerk who takes payments on you behalf should be restricted
    to read-only. I didn't know that the same wallet can configured
    with multiple users.

    I have to wrap my head around how payments work.

    Meanwhile THIS sounds interesting: https://bitpay.com/card

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
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    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Mar 21 23:20:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <605815B8.53570.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <60575E08.46835.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello poindexter!

    ** On Sunday 21.03.21 - 07:28, you wrote:

    I loved PayPal, for a time. I'd put some money into it, buy
    a film camera. Clean it up, shoot a couple of rolls, sell
    it for a profit, put the profit back into PayPal. Buy
    another one, repeat. I parlayed $25 into $400 that way and
    got to play with some cool cameras in the process.

    That is a good result. It reminds of stories of people trading
    up from a paper-clip to purchasing a house.

    Right now we are following a model according to which
    Bitcoin is a fancy way of transfering and storing dollar or
    euro, which frankly, does not work for me.

    The use of Bitcoin as a transfer medium is interesting - overseas money transfers are expensive and take a long time.

    Just watching the live bitcoin transactions is mind-boggling.
    Transactions in the 6 to 7 figures every minute. I feel left
    out. :/

    I bank with USAA, they don't have any physical branches. I
    can deposit checks using a phone app, they'll mail
    cashier's checks, and I sold a car using a bank wire that
    took 15 minutes to process from another USAA customer.

    We have a couple of non-physical banks here in Canada too. One
    of them was called ING, then it changed its name to Tangerine,
    and now it operates as a subsidiary of a traditional brick-n-
    mortar bank. Another one is PC Financial, which is a service
    affiliated with the NoFrills grocery chain in Canada.

    But the problem with them is placing accumulated cash INTO their
    system.

    Meanwhile, I'd need a separate NEW phone to support my bank's
    app. Then I could just take a picture of any cheque to make a
    deposit. Not sure if I can justify the expense. My gifted
    Blackberry is wonderful, but its Android/Google apps download/
    purchasing system decided to break following an update.

    Some of my customers ask if my POS does cash-back. Typically it
    does not. It's simple enough for a customer to "overpay" for a
    purchase and I simply give them the difference in cash. But the
    problem with that system would be if they use a credit card and
    later claim an error on their card and I would face a charge-
    back.

    However, I learned that I can offer cash-back if the person uses
    the eTransfer method. They send me a payment via eTransfer
    which I can confirm within minutes, and then I hand over the
    cash equivalent. That's a pretty cool way to "deposit" my cash
    into the bank without setting foot in a bank.


    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
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    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Sun Mar 21 23:56:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <605815B8.53572.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <6056FA99.3875.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello MRO!

    ** On Sunday 21.03.21 - 02:49, you wrote to me:

    Aww.. what's the story on that wallet?

    i didnt save it and i didnt think bitcoin would blow up like
    it did.

    Steve Gibson (of grc.com, Spinrite and Twit podcast) and Max
    Keiser (of RT's Keiser Report) said the same thing when bitcoin
    first started out. I think they have new wallets by now.

    It probably doesn't hurt to start fresh and buy about $200 to
    start. Based on the rate of fluctuations, that $200 could
    convert into larger funds pretty quick.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Mon Mar 22 00:17:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <60581A6B.53573.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <6057A207.3901.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello MRO!

    ** On Sunday 21.03.21 - 14:44, MRO wrote to Ogg:

    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Arelor on Sun Mar 21 2021 09:40 am

    Does that clinit just use the online bitcoin button at your site
    to when paying you? Doesn't the online button go through an
    exchange server?

    you send your bitcoin to that person's bitcoin address. there's no charges until you try to switch it back to your countries currency.

    Which reminds me:

    "A new currency for global trade (E1668)

    In this episode of the Keiser Report, Max and Stacy look at the
    Citibank report suggesting that bitcoin will be the new currency
    for global trade within the next seven years. In the second
    half, Max interviews Chris Fenton, author of 'Feeding the
    Dragon,' about why the United States is falling so far behind
    China in high tech, and whether or not a financialized economy,
    characterized by stock buybacks and loading companies with debt
    instead of R&D, is one that can ever compete against an economy
    like China's, in which investment in innovation is growing.

    Mar 9, 2021 06:39

    https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/517521-new-currency-
    global-trade/

    Worth while checking out.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
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    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Ogg on Mon Mar 22 04:12:04 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <60585F64.22031.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
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    @TZ: c168
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Arelor on Sun Mar 21 2021 10:44 pm

    OH.. so you operate with TWO wallets? I can see the importance
    of a clerk who takes payments on you behalf should be restricted
    to read-only. I didn't know that the same wallet can configured
    with multiple users.


    Actually, only the store's wallet is mine. The clinic has its own wallet. I just happen to have access to it because I am the
    dude who set the thing up :-)

    A read only wallet is basically a wallet that only contains the public-key part of the crypto, so it can't be used to make
    transactions.

    There are also wallets that require multiple users to aprove of any transaction commanded. Say, árelor, the Necromancer and I
    can have a shared wallet with funds in it, and set it up so the money can only be spent if the three of us agree.

    There is an article in Linux Magazine, writen by a very handsome guy whith a very sweet horse smell, with Bitcoin centric
    distro review. It covers a lot of interesting topics if you want to have a look.

    www.linux-magazine.com/Issues/2017/205/BitKey-and-Bitcoin

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From DaiTengu@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Dream Master on Mon Mar 22 10:05:02 2021
    @VIA: ENSEMBLE
    @MSGID: <6058B21E.28103.dove-general@warensemble.com>
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    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Dream Master to DaiTengu on Mon Mar 15 2021 01:04 pm

    Lefties have no economic sense at all. They think that if a company
    charges $2 for a cup of coffee, the company gets all that money.
    They don't understand that after paying for everything that it takes
    to make that cup of money, they company is lucky to get $0.02 out of
    that $2.

    "Leftie" here. I own/run a business. I, and my fellow "Lefties"
    are quite-fucking-aware of how such things work.

    On the other hand, it seems to appear you still think "Trickle down
    economics" work, although there's no evidence to support that.

    The idea that Reagan communicated in the 80s was that the rich business owners will ensure the livelihoods of their workers, aka "Trickle Down Economics". This never worked but became the Conservative Mantra moving forward. The reality is, the rich business owners are only concerned
    about getting richer and the workers are expendible for lower-wage, potentially off-shore, workers.

    As a "Leftie", I am capable of seeing the delta between executive compensation and worker compensation to grow each year. Where executive compensation was once 10 to 30 times that of the lowest paid worker is
    now 200, 300, even 1000 times that. This is unacceptable.

    a 90% corporate tax rate was good enough for Ike, but if you dare suggest it now, you get called a "commie".

    Go ahead, dig up Ike and call him a commie to his face, I bet he'd still smack the teeth out of your mouth.


    a high tax rate for corporations incentivizes them to spend money on expansion, and paying their employees.

    DaiTengu

    ... An argument is where two people are trying to get the LAST word in FIRST!

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Mon Mar 22 12:00:34 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <605886E2.25303.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
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    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sun Mar 21 2021 09:11 pm

    I think we are talking past each other.

    I accept fully that there is no fixed upper limit on the amount that can be issued.

    I am saying that TODAY there is. Tomorrow, there will be.

    Remember, the argument was about the value of currency. Currency maintains value because we can use it to buy things, and because you can't just pluck it out of thin air.

    For pretty much everyone that is true. If currency is NOT scarce, then why the hell am I bothering to go to work to try to earn it? Why are not all loans just granted automatically?

    We are definitely talking past each other because I am discussing the literal economic definition of scarcity in relation to commodities. I was NOT talking about artificial scarcity, which is what you are describing.

    All fiat currencies are destined to collapse sooner or later as they have no interinsic value. Hyperinfaltion and the subsequent monetary collapse, i.e. when the currency can no longer be exchanged for goods and services, is the deciding factor in relation to the final tally of currency units in the financial system.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to MRO on Mon Mar 22 12:20:06 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <60588B76.25304.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <605799F1.3898.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: MRO to Andeddu on Sun Mar 21 2021 02:09 pm

    https://www.barstoolbets.com/blogs/3238063/do-you-think-this-guy-regrets-tur ning-down-50000-btc-for-a-dollar13-million-home-purchase-now-worth-dollar1.6 5-billion

    or google man who refused house payment with bitcoin

    he turned it down and could have been a billionaire now

    There's so much Bitcoin regret out there, I am kinda glad I didn't invest because I know I would have probably cashed out at around 20 dollars per coin.

    -----------------------------
    Emanny/ ZZZ Finance

    My biggest regret is I saw btc when it was 0.003 dollars each right after its inception and I was too young to have a debit card and I wanted to buy 50 dollars worth and my mom didn't give me her debit card. She called it a Chinese scam, and despite my pleas she shut me down. And, well, the rest is history.

    -----------------------------

    Lol.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Mon Mar 22 12:32:04 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <60588E44.25305.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <6057B73C.53557.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Sun Mar 21 2021 04:41 pm

    But do you think you could trust an exchange to convert and
    deliver that 50 million in cash? :/ You would have to give
    your coins to the exchange, and then WAIT for the cash delivery.
    They could claim something went wrong and never deliver.

    Cryptocurrency exchanges are certified and regulated financial institutions. Many of them convert billions of dollars worth of Bitcoins and other forms of difital currency each day. They usually charge 1.5-2% as a transaction fee so there is a nice profit in it for them. All financial transactions are traceable so I wouldn't worry about disappearing Bitcoins or dollars.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Mon Mar 22 12:59:01 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <60589495.25306.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <6057D521.53561.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Sun Mar 21 2021 07:21 pm

    About a month ago, I subscribed to a stock investment
    newsletter. It delivers BUY NOW suggestions, and other
    interesting info every day. The idea is to follow the
    recommendations (virtually) and see where I would be based on
    the imaginary $s allocated for that.

    Perhaps I should share the info here and see what y'all think.

    Thought it was rather fickle how stock can plummet based on a
    rumour or bad press.

    There are free trading platforms you can use to purchase and sell shares such as Robin Hood. Trading imaginary currency is fine if you're looking to practice and gain a little bit of experience. The stock market can go up or down based on any kid of information. It's up to the trader to interpret market volatility and subsequently make trades that are going to yield a profit. You can trade indexes, stocks, currency, commodities, bonds, etc... in many different ways, and hedge your bets using derivative instruments.

    The market is very volatile right now, which is great if you're an experienced trader trading on your own account, or a institutional prop trader who is part of a sales team, but it would not be something I would suggest doing with little to no knowledge. A lot of newbies got stung going long on GME stock, crapping their pants when the institutions shorted the highs after Robin Hood halted buys, and exiting their positions on the lows resulting in around 80-90% losses on a lot of their accounts.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Mon Mar 22 13:06:15 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <60589647.25307.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <605815B8.53572.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to MRO on Sun Mar 21 2021 11:56 pm

    Steve Gibson (of grc.com, Spinrite and Twit podcast) and Max
    Keiser (of RT's Keiser Report) said the same thing when bitcoin
    first started out. I think they have new wallets by now.

    Max Keiser invested in Bitcoin early doors, probably '11 or '12 and is now rolling in cash. He had prior experience in digital currency so had a more intimate understanding of the mechanics compared to most investors.

    

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Mon Mar 22 13:12:34 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <605897C2.25308.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
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    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to MRO on Mon Mar 22 2021 12:17 am

    Which reminds me:

    "A new currency for global trade (E1668)

    In this episode of the Keiser Report, Max and Stacy look at the
    Citibank report suggesting that bitcoin will be the new currency
    for global trade within the next seven years. In the second
    half, Max interviews Chris Fenton, author of 'Feeding the
    Dragon,' about why the United States is falling so far behind
    China in high tech, and whether or not a financialized economy, characterized by stock buybacks and loading companies with debt
    instead of R&D, is one that can ever compete against an economy
    like China's, in which investment in innovation is growing.

    Mar 9, 2021 06:39

    https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/517521-new-currency-
    global-trade/

    I am sure Bitcoin will be accepted as a form of payment by most retail establishments in the future. China is a massive Bitcoin market also, and they'll soon have the world's largest economy. If they begin trading in Bitcoin, it should become mainstream. I just wonder how Bitcoin and other cryptos are going to fare once the Federal Reserve rolls out it's own digital dollar.

    ---
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dr. What on Mon Mar 22 05:26:14 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <60588CE6.17088.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6053548B.51346.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/18/2021 6:01 AM, Dr. What wrote:
    Again, for the most part, corporations don't pay taxes, their customers
    do.

    I was watching a documentary about coffee recently. One quote stood out: This cup of coffee cost me $2. The grower receives $0.02.

    This implied that the coffee shop owner got the other $1.98 - which is,
    of course, false.

    But that's what people like Dream Master believe. They are completely ignorant of economics and if they were in charge, would run a company
    like a 5 year old runs a Cool Aid stand.

    That's why I actually prefer VAT/Transaction tax models over income tax models. While I'm not a fan of larger government, at least the models
    make sense based on activity. Ideologically speaking, imho, I feel that
    if a person can own a piece of property, never leave said property and
    able to subsist on what one grows/uses on that property, they should
    never be at risk of losing that property just because they lived another
    year.

    The other issue is that income tax models by necessity have so many
    loopholes over the years. Either progressive tax models, discounts to encourage specific practices, subsidies, etc. Transaction-bsed taxes
    are by nature based on activity and can be much smaller, but in
    aggregate raise just as much as the more flawed/flexible models.

    As to the often cited counter argument, "rich people don't spend as
    much." Well that's incredibly flawed... Imagine a 0.1% tax on currency
    or stock exchanges. All those micro transactions from investment
    companies and funds trying to bend the stock market. It's huge, and
    every time it's been proposed, so much lobbying comes out of the
    woodwork to push it down.

    Trying to tax the "income" of companies is an exercise in futility.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Boraxman on Mon Mar 22 05:51:21 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <605892C9.17091.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6053DEB9.49755.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/18/2021 4:34 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    Technology, medicine, science, better agricultural techniques
    lifted people out of poverty.

    And those kinds of things don't typically advance nearly as well
    or quickly in Socialist societies vs Capitalist. In terms of
    agriculture in particular, socialism is often regressive even.
    Hence massive starvation that tends to sweep socialist nations.

    I really wish people could get out of this "Communism vs
    Capitalism" mindset. It really retards progress, meaningful
    analysis and is misleading. There is no point engaging in
    discussion of economics if someone thinks that it is an either-or proposition. It is like discussing drinks with someone who thinks
    its a choice between beer and coke.

    When there are people literally rioting and pushing for Marxist-style policies, it kind of becomes the argument and a lot of nuance is lost.

    I'm also a pragmatic libertarian and will generally lean towards
    whatever brings less bureaucracy and has a chance of actually becoming law/policy.


    Communism is relatively new, historically speaking. Capitalism is
    older, but still modern. What do you think people were doing
    beforehand?

    And Capitalism is different to Free Markets again. People
    produced advancements and great art and great things and science pre-Capitalism.

    Capitalism is in its' es sense trade... From a political perspective,
    it's more about allowing trade to happen with as few restrictions as reasonable. It's existed for as long as man has wanted something
    someone else had and was willing to use something other than force to
    acquire it.

    Communism is about collectivist control. It sounds good in concept, but
    the reality of how greed and motivation work will usually overcome any idealistic agenda.

    It's more complex in practice but often comes down the to differences in
    how the exclusive right (of governments) to use of force is handled.
    Some favor stronger controls as collectivists. Others will favor
    individual liberty and freedom. Most are somewhere in the middle.
    Politics is the negotiation of terms towards one's agenda and goals.

    I think that liberty and common law can go a very long way with a fairly limited central government. As to corporations, I feel they are granted conditional immunity and limited liability by government and should be
    limited as such. That isn't the same as collectivist control or
    ownership so much as boundaries for interactions.

    For the record, I used to be a Communist. Having met several expats
    from China and Russia in my life, I no longer could hold many of those
    views. Having worked in/around enough government in my career has
    tended to shape my mindset much more in favor of as limited a government
    as pragmatically possible.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Boraxman on Mon Mar 22 05:54:58 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <605893A2.17092.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6053DEBB.49756.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/18/2021 4:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there
    isn't> a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class
    disparity.

    You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER
    argued for Communism. I don't believe that criticising the current
    ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would lead
    to it.

    Your either confused as hell, or just arguing against something that
    lives in your imagination. I can't make head not tails of your fanciful thought proceses.

    There are right now, Democrats holding public office and workers within
    the party that are pushing for Marxist policies. There are riots and "antonymous zones" controlled by those who which to have a
    Marxist/Communist society in this country. Your own statements have
    echoed similar sentiment and I'm sorry if this isn't you, but if it
    quacks like a duck, my first assumption is going to be it's a duck.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Boraxman on Mon Mar 22 05:56:46 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <6058940E.17093.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6053DEBD.49757.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/18/2021 4:57 AM, Boraxman wrote:

    This is how Capitalism works. It indoctrinates people into being the lap-dogs for Capital and those who control it. It's not just an economic system, it is a set of values, it relies on people accepting Capitalist MORALITY. These arguments are not about economics. It's defending a morality, a morality that serves the 1%.

    You decry tribalist dogma, then proceed to spew tribalist dogma.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Boraxman on Mon Mar 22 05:59:19 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <605894A7.17094.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6053DEBD.49758.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/18/2021 5:03 AM, Boraxman wrote:

    Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an
    infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that,
    but they don't, and aren't going to do it tomorrow.

    Trust.

    Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was
    "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's actually
    a problem.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
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  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Arelor on Mon Mar 22 06:04:49 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <605895F2.17095.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <60546B73.21904.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/19/2021 2:14 AM, Arelor wrote:
    And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there
    isn't a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class
    disparity.

    You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER
    argued for Communism. I don't believe that criticising the current
    ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would lead
    to it.

    You are not arguing for Communism, but you are arguing for an economic
    model that is surprisingly close (ie. a non-Marxism inspired flavor of Socialism, similar to the one advocated by classic Fascist groups).

    Thank you... in my mind, Communism, Fascism and most forms of dramatic collectivism are all different sides of coins minted in the same
    Socialist dogma to me. You can call it "Democratic Socialist" but still pushing for collectivist government controls that will only suppress all rather than let most rise in the name of some twisted view of "fair".
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Gamgee on Mon Mar 22 06:21:05 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <605899C2.17097.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <60549FD6.21907.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/19/2021 5:20 AM, Gamgee wrote:
    As for CEO's, wealth inequality is a major, major social problem,
    and directly affects me. It affects my nation.

    So..... just like Dream Master, you are quite sure it's a huge
    problem, and yet.... you can't just say in straight language what
    the problem actually *IS*. LOL. Talk about "talking points".

    You're both hypocrites and CNN talking-head regurgitators.

    I do think the widening class gap from the 1% to the rest is an issue,
    only because it is done in such a way that is self-perpetuating by
    abusing position and influence over what should otherwise be a free
    market. The wealthy/elite will place each-other in positions of power
    and influence on the boards of a circle jerk of large corporations and over-pay themselves and the executives to keep the circle going. In this
    way, they're a drain on the market, not a benefit to it.

    That's not from a PoV of advocating for a Socialist system, only in that corporate power is largely a grant of the government, and like the
    government, should be relatively limited in scope and execution in
    practice. It's in favor of competition and free markets that I say
    this. Personally, I don't think anyone in a company should make 100x
    anyone else in the same company or more than 2-3x their subordinates,
    that's just me though. It still would leave room for a rising tide to
    raise all boats so to speak. It also aligns with how most corporations
    that aren't massive actually operate in practice.

    In the end, I'm not a fan of trying to tax corporate income and think transaction taxes are far more fair and appropriate... with fewer means
    of abuse and loopholes.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Andeddu on Mon Mar 22 23:35:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <60596212.53617.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <60588B76.25304.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Monday 22.03.21 - 12:20, Andeddu wrote to MRO:

    There's so much Bitcoin regret out there, I am kinda glad I
    didn't invest because I know I would have probably cashed
    out at around 20 dollars per coin.

    Along with clear investment picks, here is a sample of the kind
    of extra news I get in my investment newsletter:

    The Man Voted "Most Trusted Expert in Crypto" Reveals His Next
    Top Pick for FREE
    Wednesday, March 31st, at 8 p.m. ET

    Former Wall Street VP and hedge fund manager Teeka Tiwari
    picked bitcoin in 2016, when it traded for just $428.

    Early readers who listened to Teeka's advice had the
    opportunity to multiply their money over 120X as bitcoin
    soared to $50,000 and above (becoming the first cryptocurrency
    to pass the trillion-dollar mark in market cap).

    As a result.

    A panel of 130,000 analysts nominated Teeka Tiwari as the
    "Most Trusted Expert in Crypto."

    And on Wednesday, March 31st, at 8 p.m. ET, Teeka will give
    you the name of his next top pick. for FREE!

    It's a coin he believes will be the next cryptocurrency to
    break the trillion-dollar market cap barrier.

    So.. the "pick" could be a fine one to enter into on the low-end
    and come out on top just a few months later.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Tracker1 on Tue Mar 23 08:30:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6059F48D.51541.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <60588CE6.17088.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: c12c
    Tracker1 wrote to Dr. What <=-

    That's why I actually prefer VAT/Transaction tax models over income tax models.

    That would seem to be more fair. Those who have more money, spend more.
    Tax the spending, and you push the tax on those who can more easily pay it.
    But that also creates a disincentive to purchase things, which can hurt
    the economy.

    But that's just generalizations. It's the details that matter.

    Ideologically speaking, imho, I feel
    that if a person can own a piece of property, never leave said property and able to subsist on what one grows/uses on that property, they
    should never be at risk of losing that property just because they lived another year.

    That's why I say that because of the tax system, you don't actually own anything. My property tax is effectively rent to the city because if I
    don't pay it, I lose my "property".

    The other issue is that income tax models by necessity have so many loopholes over the years.

    Some are loopholes, but most are social engineering attempts. If they want
    to promote X, they create some sort of deduction for doing X.

    But the end result is a mess of rules that, if you have a good tax lawyer,
    and some money to use, you can play the rules that get the gov't to give you more of your money back.

    Trying to tax the "income" of companies is an exercise in futility.

    Exactly. But it goes with the false Leftie Narrative that corporations are "bad" (Yet, the Democrats seem to be deeply in bed with the corporations).

    It also appeals to the Leftie ignorance that if a company sells a product
    for $500, that the company profited by $500 on that sale. They don't understand
    how narrow the margins are for retailers (Heck, I doubt that they understand what a "margin" is).


    ... I am not arguing with you, I'm telling you.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Tracker1 on Tue Mar 23 08:36:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6059F48D.51542.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <6058940E.17093.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: c12c
    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    You decry tribalist dogma, then proceed to spew tribalist dogma.

    Lefties lack self-awareness. That's what makes them hypocrites.


    ... Call me if you need my phone number!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Tracker1 on Tue Mar 23 08:42:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6059F48D.51543.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <605895F2.17095.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: c12c
    Tracker1 wrote to Arelor <=-

    Thank you... in my mind, Communism, Fascism and most forms of dramatic collectivism are all different sides of coins minted in the same
    Socialist dogma to me. You can call it "Democratic Socialist" but
    still pushing for collectivist government controls that will only
    suppress all rather than let most rise in the name of some twisted view
    of "fair". --

    You bring up an interesting difference between Leftie Elites and Reality.

    The concept of "fairness".

    Take this situation:
    Allen and Bob work for the same company doing the same job.
    Allen comes in and leaves on time, takes the normal breaks and puts
    in a good 8 hour work day.
    Bob comes in late, sneaks out early, hides in the restroom and puts
    in a fair 4 hour day.

    At the end of a year, Allen gets bump in pay, while Bob does not.

    To the vast majority of people, that's fair. Allen gave more, so Allen
    gets more.

    But to the Leftie Elite, that's not fair because, in their twisted version
    of reality, Allen and Bob are "equal".


    ... A dry sense of humor is better than slobbering everywhere
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Tracker1 on Tue Mar 23 10:28:59 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <6059C2EB.25348.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <605894A7.17094.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Tracker1 to Boraxman on Mon Mar 22 2021 05:59 am

    Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was
    "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's actually
    a problem.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    And those who are unaware of what will happen in the future ought to look at Germany, Yugoslavia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Hungary, etc...

    Once government printing reaches critical mass and 1-2 Tr dollar stimulus packages become the norm, it won't be long before things become exponentially worse.

    Let's look at Yugoslavia April 1992 to Jan 1994 as a case study. Their highest monthly inflation rate was 313,000,000 giving a daily inflation rate of 64.6% causing prices for consumer goods to double every 1.4 days. People couldn't afford food, gas stations were closed, etc... resulting in a black market for commodities.

    I am not saying it'll be as bad as that in the USA or other Western countries, but it will be bad, and any money you have in your bank account may be worthless in the next couple of years.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Tue Mar 23 10:45:18 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <6059C6BE.25349.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <60596212.53617.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Mon Mar 22 2021 11:35 pm

    The Man Voted "Most Trusted Expert in Crypto" Reveals His Next
    Top Pick for FREE
    Wednesday, March 31st, at 8 p.m. ET

    Former Wall Street VP and hedge fund manager Teeka Tiwari
    picked bitcoin in 2016, when it traded for just $428.

    Early readers who listened to Teeka's advice had the
    opportunity to multiply their money over 120X as bitcoin
    soared to $50,000 and above (becoming the first cryptocurrency
    to pass the trillion-dollar mark in market cap).

    As a result.

    A panel of 130,000 analysts nominated Teeka Tiwari as the
    "Most Trusted Expert in Crypto."

    And on Wednesday, March 31st, at 8 p.m. ET, Teeka will give
    you the name of his next top pick. for FREE!

    It's a coin he believes will be the next cryptocurrency to
    break the trillion-dollar market cap barrier.

    So.. the "pick" could be a fine one to enter into on the low-end
    and come out on top just a few months later.

    My guess is that he'll be talking about the Dogecoin. Elon Musk has been banging on about it for a while now and there is a lot of speculation that it'll spike in value. It is currently trading at 0.06 dollars so gambling 20-30 bucks on it wouldn't be a bad thing.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Tue Mar 23 18:22:00 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <605A80F3.22088.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6059F48D.51543.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: c168
    Dr. What wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Thank you... in my mind, Communism, Fascism and most forms of dramatic collectivism are all different sides of coins minted in the same
    Socialist dogma to me. You can call it "Democratic Socialist" but
    still pushing for collectivist government controls that will only
    suppress all rather than let most rise in the name of some twisted view
    of "fair".

    You bring up an interesting difference between Leftie Elites and
    Reality.

    The concept of "fairness".

    Take this situation:
    Allen and Bob work for the same company doing the same job.
    Allen comes in and leaves on time, takes the normal breaks and
    puts in a good 8 hour work day.
    Bob comes in late, sneaks out early, hides in the restroom and
    puts in a fair 4 hour day.

    At the end of a year, Allen gets bump in pay, while Bob does not.

    To the vast majority of people, that's fair. Allen gave more, so
    Allen gets more.

    But to the Leftie Elite, that's not fair because, in their
    twisted version of reality, Allen and Bob are "equal".

    A great (and realistic) example of the distorted universe that Lefties
    live in. There are Lefties in this very message area that firmly
    believe that the CEO of a huge firm should have the same income as a
    homeless heroin addict living in a tent under a bridge, and shitting on
    the curb while he tosses a used syringe into the street.

    Just...... impossible for a normal person to comprehend that kind of stupidity. Oh well, they make me laugh, so they have some small value.



    ... The best way to make a long story short is to stop listening.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Andeddu on Tue Mar 23 21:09:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <605A97D5.53647.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <6059C6BE.25349.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Tuesday 23.03.21 - 10:45, Andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    The Man Voted "Most Trusted Expert in Crypto" Reveals His Next
    Top Pick for FREE
    Wednesday, March 31st, at 8 p.m. ET

    So.. the "pick" could be a fine one to enter into on the low-end
    and come out on top just a few months later.

    My guess is that he'll be talking about the Dogecoin. Elon
    Musk has been banging on about it for a while now and there
    is a lot of speculation that it'll spike in value. It is
    currently trading at 0.06 dollars so gambling 20-30bucks on
    it wouldn't be a bad thing.

    Yes.. my guess would be the same one that Musk was talking
    about. But then there is Ethereum too - it's not just a coin,
    it's also for assets. Lately, something called non-fungible
    tokens has made the news.

    If I don't remember after Mar 31, remind me and I'll report back
    what "The Man.." revealed. I have access to the myriad of
    investment advice and news from that newsletter, but I don't
    read everything. I don't have the resources to buy most
    established stocks anyway. But a small expense even up to $50 I
    might risk if there is an opportunity to compound that initial
    amount many times over in a few months.


    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Gamgee on Wed Mar 24 08:41:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <605B36DC.51566.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <605A80F3.22088.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: c12c
    Gamgee wrote to Dr. What <=-

    A great (and realistic) example of the distorted universe that Lefties live in. There are Lefties in this very message area that firmly
    believe that the CEO of a huge firm should have the same income as a homeless heroin addict living in a tent under a bridge, and shitting on the curb while he tosses a used syringe into the street.

    Just...... impossible for a normal person to comprehend that kind of stupidity. Oh well, they make me laugh, so they have some small value.

    I used to think that Lefties were just stupid. But I realized it was more
    than that. They are also completely incompetant.

    They know, deep down, that they will **never** be as good as the star
    worker in their company. They know that starting and building a company
    is far beyond their abilities. But they **want** to be that star worker
    or the President of the company.

    But instead of trying to improve themselves, they want to being down every
    one better than them (which is the majority of the people).

    Jealousy is the basis for their desires, even though they try to hide it
    behind fluff terms (like "woke", and "inclusiveness", and such).

    And they push socialism which wants to make everyone equally poor (except
    for the Elites at the top).


    ... "Are your cookies made with real Girl Scouts?"
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Wed Mar 24 16:17:25 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <605B6615.25382.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <605A97D5.53647.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Tue Mar 23 2021 09:09 pm

    My guess is that he'll be talking about the Dogecoin. Elon
    Musk has been banging on about it for a while now and there
    is a lot of speculation that it'll spike in value. It is
    currently trading at 0.06 dollars so gambling 20-30bucks on
    it wouldn't be a bad thing.

    Yes.. my guess would be the same one that Musk was talking
    about. But then there is Ethereum too - it's not just a coin,
    it's also for assets. Lately, something called non-fungible
    tokens has made the news.

    If I don't remember after Mar 31, remind me and I'll report back
    what "The Man.." revealed. I have access to the myriad of
    investment advice and news from that newsletter, but I don't
    read everything. I don't have the resources to buy most
    established stocks anyway. But a small expense even up to $50 I
    might risk if there is an opportunity to compound that initial
    amount many times over in a few months.

    XRP also appears to be getting some traction too. Ethereum is fairly established so I can't see it going up in large multiples in the same way as Bitcoin... I could be very wrong on that though. I'd personally go with the <1 dollar cryptos and take a complete punt in the event they one day become a major currency. I'm a little bit curious as to what the guy's pick is at the end of the month.

    Non-fungible tokens (NFTs) are a complete scam in my opinion. They're the digital equivalent of sticker books and they'll never be used as any form of currency as they aren't fungible. A good example of an NFT is Jack Dorsey's first tweet which was sold for almost 3 million dollars.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Andeddu on Thu Mar 25 09:55:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <605C966F.53676.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <605B6615.25382.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Wednesday 24.03.21 - 16:17, Andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    ..I don't have the resources to buy most
    established stocks anyway. But a small expense even up to $50 I
    might risk if there is an opportunity to compound that initial
    amount many times over in a few months.

    XRP also appears to be getting some traction too. Ethereum is fairly established so I can't see it going up in large multiples in the same way as Bitcoin... I could be very wrong on that though...

    Interested in taking this topic to an emptier echo? I could
    could post snippets from the newsletter I get. Discuss. Hope.
    Dream. I would suggest CHAT or COFFEE_KLATSCH. Then, if the
    investment topic becomes bullish (pun intended) a dedicated echo
    to talk about it could work well.

    Non-fungible tokens (NFTs) are a complete scam in my
    opinion. They're the digital equivalent of sticker books and
    they'll never be used as any form of currency as they aren't
    fungible. A good example of an NFT is Jack Dorsey's first
    tweet which was sold for almost 3 million dollars.

    I heard about the "investment/purchase" of the tweet. Sounds
    ludicrous. Maybe that is another symptom of covid. :/

    I've never heard of the term fungible before. The end result
    sounds almost like a sophisticated barter. But the digital
    aspect of it seems volatile or ephemeral - one EMP and *poof*,
    gone.


    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Andeddu on Thu Mar 25 23:25:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <605D225B.49991.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <605886E2.25303.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: 9258
    Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <605886E2.25303.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <60571C58.49843.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
    Sun Mar 21 2021 09:11 pm

    I think we are talking past each other.

    I accept fully that there is no fixed upper limit on the amount that can be issued.

    I am saying that TODAY there is. Tomorrow, there will be.

    Remember, the argument was about the value of currency. Currency maintains value because we can use it to buy things, and because you can't just pluck it out of thin air.

    For pretty much everyone that is true. If currency is NOT scarce, then why the hell am I bothering to go to work to try to earn it? Why are not all loans just granted automatically?

    We are definitely talking past each other because I am discussing the literal economic definition of scarcity in relation to commodities. I
    was NOT talking about artificial scarcity, which is what you are describing.

    All fiat currencies are destined to collapse sooner or later as they
    have no interinsic value. Hyperinfaltion and the subsequent monetary collapse, i.e. when the currency can no longer be exchanged for goods
    and services, is the deciding factor in relation to the final tally of currency units in the financial system.

    I've heard this argument for 25 years, and I knows its been around longer. Lots of people still waiting for the collapse.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Tracker1 on Thu Mar 25 23:37:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <605D225D.49992.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <605892C9.17091.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: 9258
    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <605892C9.17091.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6053DEB9.49755.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 3/18/2021 4:34 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    Technology, medicine, science, better agricultural techniques
    lifted people out of poverty.

    And those kinds of things don't typically advance nearly as well
    or quickly in Socialist societies vs Capitalist. In terms of
    agriculture in particular, socialism is often regressive even.
    Hence massive starvation that tends to sweep socialist nations.

    I really wish people could get out of this "Communism vs
    Capitalism" mindset. It really retards progress, meaningful
    analysis and is misleading. There is no point engaging in
    discussion of economics if someone thinks that it is an either-or proposition. It is like discussing drinks with someone who thinks
    its a choice between beer and coke.

    When there are people literally rioting and pushing for Marxist-style policies, it kind of becomes the argument and a lot of nuance is lost.

    I'm also a pragmatic libertarian and will generally lean towards
    whatever brings less bureaucracy and has a chance of actually becoming law/policy.

    They are fools, they also bought into the false dichotomy. Though most people who are called Marxist today, are really degenerate Trotskyites.

    Communism is relatively new, historically speaking. Capitalism is
    older, but still modern. What do you think people were doing
    beforehand?

    And Capitalism is different to Free Markets again. People
    produced advancements and great art and great things and science pre-Capitalism.

    Capitalism is in its' es sense trade... From a political perspective,
    it's more about allowing trade to happen with as few restrictions as reasonable. It's existed for as long as man has wanted something
    someone else had and was willing to use something other than force to acquire it.

    Capitalism is specifically the private ownership of the means of production, and a system of employment. It is not about allowing trade to happen, as trade existed before corporations, before companies were invented.

    You could have trade in a society where companies were collectives of self-employed people, but not Capitalist would accept that as Capitalism.

    Details are important here. Capitalism is not defined by trade. It is defined by a patter of property rights.


    Communism is about collectivist control. It sounds good in concept, but the reality of how greed and motivation work will usually overcome any idealistic agenda.

    It's more complex in practice but often comes down the to differences
    in how the exclusive right (of governments) to use of force is handled. Some favor stronger controls as collectivists. Others will favor individual liberty and freedom. Most are somewhere in the middle. Politics is the negotiation of terms towards one's agenda and goals.

    I lean towards individual liberty. I disagree that Capitalism is the epitome of this, I think the Capitalism = Freedom narrative is a culturally created narrative. I advocate for MORE self-ownership and MORE autonomy.

    I am anti-Capitalist because I think Capitalism fails in respecting the individuals autonomy, liberty, natural property rights and right to self-governance. Capitalism does not respect these values sufficiently. It CLAIMS to, but those claims don't stand to scrutiny, and when you do start to poke holes, people jump to their indoctrination and bring out standard talking points as to why we can't have liberty, self-governance, etc.


    I think that liberty and common law can go a very long way with a
    fairly limited central government. As to corporations, I feel they are granted conditional immunity and limited liability by government and should be limited as such. That isn't the same as collectivist control
    or ownership so much as boundaries for interactions.

    For the record, I used to be a Communist. Having met several expats
    from China and Russia in my life, I no longer could hold many of those views. Having worked in/around enough government in my career has
    tended to shape my mindset much more in favor of as limited a
    government as pragmatically possible.

    I am for smaller government, but I think the companies/big business can easily step in for government and the church, and ARE doing so. The blindspot in Libertarian ideology is that it considers the government a problem, but doesn't consider other institutions which could limit freedom the same way a problem, because they are not, by definition, government.

    I am not interested in theoretical freedom, but actual, lived, experienced, practical freedom. One could live in what is, on paper, a dicatorship, and experience more freedom than a society which is, on paper, free. I would argue the former is more free, even if by definition it is not.


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Tracker1 on Thu Mar 25 23:40:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <605D225F.49993.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <605893A2.17092.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: 9258
    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <605893A2.17092.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6053DEBB.49756.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 3/18/2021 4:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    And you're either willfully ignorant or lying if you think there
    isn't> a 1% in communist societies with an even greater class
    disparity.

    You're creating a strawman here. I never argued otherwise. I NEVER
    argued for Communism. I don't believe that criticising the current
    ruling elite means advocating Communism, or that reforms would lead
    to it.

    Your either confused as hell, or just arguing against something that
    lives in your imagination. I can't make head not tails of your fanciful thought proceses.

    There are right now, Democrats holding public office and workers within the party that are pushing for Marxist policies. There are riots and "antonymous zones" controlled by those who which to have a Marxist/Communist society in this country. Your own statements have echoed similar sentiment and I'm sorry if this isn't you, but if it
    quacks like a duck, my first assumption is going to be it's a duck.

    Can you point to some specifics?

    I think this is a case of "it has feathers, it must be a duck".


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Tracker1 on Thu Mar 25 23:47:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <605D2261.49994.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <605894A7.17094.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: 9258
    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <605894A7.17094.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6053DEBD.49758.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 3/18/2021 5:03 AM, Boraxman wrote:

    Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an
    infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that,
    but they don't, and aren't going to do it tomorrow.

    Trust.

    Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's actually
    a problem.

    What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Andeddu on Thu Mar 25 21:56:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <605D4F1C.53678.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <605B6615.25382.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Wednesday 24.03.21 - 16:17, Andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    XRP also appears to be getting some traction too. Ethereum
    is fairly established so I can't see it going up in large
    multiples in the same way as Bitcoin... I could be very
    wrong on that though. I'd personally go with the <1 dollar
    cryptos and take a complete punt in the event they one day
    become a major currency. I'm a little bit curious as to what
    the guy's pick is at the end of the month.

    UPDATE. The link that I am provided with takes me first through
    the newsletter's resource hub, and then I get forwarded to
    Teeka's site, but the page load stalls. I tried it on two
    different PCs and with all scripting off and even with
    nextdns.io off. Still no go. :(

    Maybe someone else here can have better luck. The same
    announcement is mentioned at many places:

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/crypto-next-trillion-dollar-coin- 191300418.html

    https://ca.news.yahoo.com/crypto-next-trillion-dollar-coin-
    191300418.html

    Or google for "Teeka Tiwari bitcoin"

    Every link to the ultimate destination sort of locks up and the
    swirwly dots thing just stops. Maybe the event had/has a
    limited booking. :(


    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Boraxman on Fri Mar 26 06:39:00 2021
    @VIA: REALITY
    @MSGID: <605DE870.46977.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <605D2261.49994.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c1e0
    Boraxman wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's actually
    a problem.

    What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?

    Give money to the people to spend, who'll prop up the economy from the
    bottom up, be able to eat, pay their landlords, and generally survive?


    ... Abandon desire
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Boraxman on Fri Mar 26 10:22:47 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <605E1868.17195.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <605D225D.49992.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/25/2021 5:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    I am for smaller government, but I think the companies/big business
    can easily step in for government and the church, and ARE doing so.
    The blindspot in Libertarian ideology is that it considers the
    government a problem, but doesn't consider other institutions which
    could limit freedom the same way a problem, because they are not, by definition, government.

    Corporate power is granted by government, not limited by it...
    Government grants liability protections to companies. If they didn't do
    that, then common-law could handle most issues with corporate abuse of
    power.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Boraxman on Fri Mar 26 10:25:17 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <605E18FE.17196.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <605D225F.49993.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/25/2021 5:40 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    There are right now, Democrats holding public office and workers
    within the party that are pushing for Marxist policies. There are
    riots and "antonymous zones" controlled by those who which to have
    a Marxist/Communist society in this country. Your own statements
    have echoed similar sentiment and I'm sorry if this isn't you, but
    if it quacks like a duck, my first assumption is going to be it's
    a duck.

    Can you point to some specifics?

    I think this is a case of "it has feathers, it must be a duck".

    I am pretty sure if you actually had a good faith position to become
    informed, you'd be able to use a search engine yourself. As far as I'm concerned, I am not in favor of collectivist/socialist policies. I
    could be convinced of an argument for specific social programs, but that
    is far from the same argument.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Boraxman on Fri Mar 26 10:27:12 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <605E1971.17197.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <605D2261.49994.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/25/2021 5:47 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an
    infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that,
    but they don't, and aren't going to do it tomorrow.

    Trust.

    Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was
    "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's
    actually a problem.

    What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?

    Your assertion that they don't keep printing near infinite supply is wrong/flawed, so instead of accepting you were mistaken, you change the subject. I didn't say that there shouldn't have been measures taken,
    you're arguing a point I didn't make. Typical leftist progressive.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Mar 27 13:54:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <605E9E87.50003.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <605DE870.46977.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @TZ: 9258
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <605DE870.46977.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <605D2261.49994.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's actually
    a problem.

    What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?

    Give money to the people to spend, who'll prop up the economy from the bottom up, be able to eat, pay their landlords, and generally survive?

    Yes.

    Here is an even better idea, don't have the ruling elite bleed these people dry. Have an economy that works for human beings, for the betterment of society and the nation.

    Our system is games to rewards wealth hoarders and parasites, because it is parasites and grifters that make it to the top of society. They make it to the top because our values system is stuffed.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to poindexter FORTRAN on Sat Mar 27 08:20:04 2021
    @VIA: BBSESINF
    @MSGID: <605F3104.4032.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @REPLY: <605DE870.46977.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Mar 26 2021 06:39 am

    Boraxman wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's actually a problem.

    What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?

    Give money to the people to spend, who'll prop up the economy from the bottom up, be able to eat, pay their landlords, and generally survive?


    where's the money come from?

    can you keep yourself from starving by canabalizing yourself?
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Tracker1 on Sat Mar 27 21:48:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <605F0EA8.50012.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <605E1868.17195.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: 9258
    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <605E1868.17195.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <605D225D.49992.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 3/25/2021 5:37 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    I am for smaller government, but I think the companies/big business
    can easily step in for government and the church, and ARE doing so.
    The blindspot in Libertarian ideology is that it considers the
    government a problem, but doesn't consider other institutions which
    could limit freedom the same way a problem, because they are not, by definition, government.

    Corporate power is granted by government, not limited by it...
    Government grants liability protections to companies. If they didn't
    do that, then common-law could handle most issues with corporate abuse
    of power.

    Not disputing that. I was referring more to culture and values. Companies can effectively "ban" speech, even if the government itself doesn't.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Tracker1 on Sat Mar 27 21:49:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <605F0EAA.50013.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <605E18FE.17196.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: 9258
    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <605E18FE.17196.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <605D225F.49993.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 3/25/2021 5:40 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    There are right now, Democrats holding public office and workers
    within the party that are pushing for Marxist policies. There are
    riots and "antonymous zones" controlled by those who which to have
    a Marxist/Communist society in this country. Your own statements
    have echoed similar sentiment and I'm sorry if this isn't you, but
    if it quacks like a duck, my first assumption is going to be it's
    a duck.

    Can you point to some specifics?

    I think this is a case of "it has feathers, it must be a duck".

    I am pretty sure if you actually had a good faith position to become informed, you'd be able to use a search engine yourself. As far as I'm concerned, I am not in favor of collectivist/socialist policies. I
    could be convinced of an argument for specific social programs, but
    that is far from the same argument.

    You didn't answer the question. What specifically did I say, which endorsed Communism, or some form of collectivism?

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Tracker1 on Sat Mar 27 21:53:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <605F0EAC.50014.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <605E1971.17197.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: 9258
    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <605E1971.17197.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <605D2261.49994.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 3/25/2021 5:47 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    Fiat currency are scarce, because in PRACTICE they don't print an
    infinite supply. Usually. In THEORY the US reserve could do that,
    but they don't, and aren't going to do it tomorrow.

    Trust.

    Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was
    "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's
    actually a problem.

    What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?

    Your assertion that they don't keep printing near infinite supply is wrong/flawed, so instead of accepting you were mistaken, you change the subject. I didn't say that there shouldn't have been measures taken, you're arguing a point I didn't make. Typical leftist progressive.

    The value of the US dollar, if supply is infinite, should be zero.

    It isn't.

    Why is the value of the dollar not zero then?



    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Sat Mar 27 23:32:41 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <605FC099.25435.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <605C966F.53676.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Thu Mar 25 2021 09:55 am

    XRP also appears to be getting some traction too. Ethereum is fairly established so I can't see it going up in large multiples in the same way as Bitcoin... I could be very wrong on that though...

    Interested in taking this topic to an emptier echo? I could
    could post snippets from the newsletter I get. Discuss. Hope.
    Dream. I would suggest CHAT or COFFEE_KLATSCH. Then, if the
    investment topic becomes bullish (pun intended) a dedicated echo
    to talk about it could work well.

    I heard about the "investment/purchase" of the tweet. Sounds
    ludicrous. Maybe that is another symptom of covid. :/

    I've never heard of the term fungible before. The end result
    sounds almost like a sophisticated barter. But the digital
    aspect of it seems volatile or ephemeral - one EMP and *poof*,
    gone.

    Yeah, I am happy to talk about investments and different types of financial instruments, etc... We can work something out. Does Net Mail work? Would that be suitable?

    NFTs are ludicrous. I don't see how you could auction off something that is a component part of a much larger online account/presence. What would happen if you purchased one of Donald Trump's tweets before his banning and removal from Twitter? You would have lost your entire investment!

    'Fungibility' is genrally an asset's ability to be broken down into identical parts. For instance, 50 cents is half of a dollar and is worth 50 cents regardless of which 50 cent coin it is and who is carrying it.

    Barter doesn't work in a sophisticated trade economy because you can't break down commodities into smaller identical component parts. A horse may be worth 200 loafs of bread, however if you only need one loaf of bread and a horse is all you have then you're onto plums. That is why a currency has to be fungible.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Sat Mar 27 23:57:14 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <605FC65A.25436.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <605D225B.49991.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Thu Mar 25 2021 11:25 pm

    We are definitely talking past each other because I am discussing the literal economic definition of scarcity in relation to commodities. I was NOT talking about artificial scarcity, which is what you are describing.

    All fiat currencies are destined to collapse sooner or later as they have no interinsic value. Hyperinfaltion and the subsequent monetary collapse, i.e. when the currency can no longer be exchanged for goods and services, is the deciding factor in relation to the final tally of currency units in the financial system.

    I've heard this argument for 25 years, and I knows its been around longer. Lots of people still waiting for the collapse.

    Then engage your brain. Inflation occurs the moment a goverment introduces new currency units into the financial system and the economy. You may not see it as it takes time for the newly created dollars to filter through the economy, but given enough time, it'll increase consumer prices.

    I don't know if you're aware, but inflation HAS occurred within the stock market. Assets have increased way beyond what would normally be percieved as "fair value" within a startlingly short period of time. For instance, in 2018, Apple achieved a market value of 1 Tr dollars. In late 2020, without seeminly doing anything, the company hit a market value of 2.1 Tr dollars. This was caused by all the newly created stimulus dollars in the system chasing the same number of assets thus increasing the price. That's why we are seeing all time highs in the stock market despite the REAL economy performing at an all time low.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Ogg on Sun Mar 28 00:04:45 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <605FC81D.25437.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <605D4F1C.53678.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Canada's simplest Bitcoin exchange soon.
    By: Ogg to Andeddu on Thu Mar 25 2021 09:56 pm

    Maybe someone else here can have better luck. The same
    announcement is mentioned at many places:

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/crypto-next-trillion-dollar-coin- 191300418.html

    https://ca.news.yahoo.com/crypto-next-trillion-dollar-coin-
    191300418.html

    Or google for "Teeka Tiwari bitcoin"

    Every link to the ultimate destination sort of locks up and the
    swirwly dots thing just stops. Maybe the event had/has a
    limited booking. :(

    That's too bad. I see that Teeka Tiwari has been interviewed on London Real and it took place only 6 days ago. It's up on YouTube so I'll probably give it a watch in the next couple of days to see what the guy is all about. Brian Rose is an ex-trader himself and a great interviewer so I am sure it'll be worth a watch.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Mar 28 00:08:57 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <605FC919.25438.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <605DE870.46977.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @TZ: 1000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Mar 26 2021 06:39 am

    What should have been done to prop up the economy during the pandemic?

    Give money to the people to spend, who'll prop up the economy from the bottom up, be able to eat, pay their landlords, and generally survive?


    That does not work. You will only create massive inflation by dropping people helicopter money. It is a short-term and short-sighted "solution" that will cause MUCH deeper problems down the road.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sun Mar 28 06:00:29 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <606061CD.22172.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <605F0EAA.50013.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on Sat Mar 27 2021 09:49 pm

    I am pretty sure if you actually had a good faith position to become informed, you'd be able to use a search engine yourself. As far as I'm concerned, I am not in favor of collectivist/socialist policies. I could be convinced of an argument for specific social programs, but that is far from the same argument.

    You didn't answer the question. What specifically did I say, which endorsed Communism, or some form of collectivism?


    Economic systems in which the think of production is carried out by enterprises that are collectively owned by workers are collectivist. They are prominently featured by Fascist and anarcho-syndicalist programs.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sun Mar 28 06:04:13 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <606062AD.22173.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <605F0EAC.50014.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on Sat Mar 27 2021 09:53 pm

    The value of the US dollar, if supply is infinite, should be zero.

    It isn't.

    Why is the value of the dollar not zero then?


    Tendency is for it to be zero. See inflation.

    It is not zero right now because supply in circulation is not zero right now. Then there are also issues like the so called "speed of money", according to which inflation does not apply evenly to the whole economy. Essential industries get hits first and harder by inflation, markets that are less dynamic (such as luxury)just tail the trend.

    I mean, it is not like fiat currencies haven't crashed in the past and we are theorizing over thigns that could be possible, but have not been demonstrated.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Boraxman on Sun Mar 28 08:54:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <60608B42.51639.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <605F0EA8.50012.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c12c
    Boraxman wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Not disputing that. I was referring more to culture and values.
    Companies can effectively "ban" speech, even if the government itself doesn't.

    The idea that companies can effectively ban speech is not 100% correct.

    There are laws dealing with political ads, for example. A TV station can't air only one side. They have to provide the same access to all sides.

    Then there's Section 230 - which protects platforms (i.e. the company is not responsible for the content of its users). The reason for that is that the company claims that it cannot police the content.

    But if the company censors content, then 1) it's not a platform, but a publisher
    and 2) it proved that it **can** police its content. Therefore it should have no Section 230 protection and can be sued for the content of its users.


    ... The tuna doesn't taste the same without the dolphin.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Andeddu on Sun Mar 28 22:27:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6060686E.50031.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <605FC65A.25436.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: 9258
    Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <605FC65A.25436.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <605D225B.49991.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on
    Thu Mar 25 2021 11:25 pm

    We are definitely talking past each other because I am discussing the literal economic definition of scarcity in relation to commodities. I was NOT talking about artificial scarcity, which is what you are describing.

    All fiat currencies are destined to collapse sooner or later as they have no interinsic value. Hyperinfaltion and the subsequent monetary collapse, i.e. when the currency can no longer be exchanged for goods and services, is the deciding factor in relation to the final tally of currency units in the financial system.

    I've heard this argument for 25 years, and I knows its been around longer. Lots of people still waiting for the collapse.

    Then engage your brain. Inflation occurs the moment a goverment
    introduces new currency units into the financial system and the
    economy. You may not see it as it takes time for the newly created
    dollars to filter through the economy, but given enough time, it'll increase consumer prices.

    I don't know if you're aware, but inflation HAS occurred within the
    stock market. Assets have increased way beyond what would normally be percieved as "fair value" within a startlingly short period of time.
    For instance, in 2018, Apple achieved a market value of 1 Tr dollars.
    In late 2020, without seeminly doing anything, the company hit a market value of 2.1 Tr dollars. This was caused by all the newly created
    stimulus dollars in the system chasing the same number of assets thus increasing the price. That's why we are seeing all time highs in the
    stock market despite the REAL economy performing at an all time low.

    Call me a pedant if you will, but that is not the result of an INFINITE supply.
    Having the potential for an infinite supply and inflating the money supply are two different things.

    The reason that there is no finite limit to the amount of currency that can be issued, is because there may not be a finite limit to which the economy can grow. Perhaps physically there is, but we don't where where that is. Where would you set the limit?

    Now, if you want to argue that the money supply is growing faster than it should, that is a different discussion (and one where you won't find me disagreeing). But making the amount of money that could potentially be issued FINITE doesn't fix that, unless you want to create a shortage, by setting the limit below that which is warranted.

    My point is, the mere fact it is theoretically infinite is not the problem. It is the practical issuance of money which is the problem.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Sun Mar 28 17:09:14 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <6060AA2A.25450.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
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    @TZ: 9000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Sun Mar 28 2021 06:04 am

    Tendency is for it to be zero. See inflation.

    It is not zero right now because supply in circulation is not zero right now. Then there are also issues like the so called "speed of money", according to which inflation does not apply evenly to the whole economy. Essential industries get hits first and harder by inflation, markets that are less dynamic (such as luxury)just tail the trend.

    I mean, it is not like fiat currencies haven't crashed in the past and we are theorizing over thigns that could be possible, but have not been demonstrated.


    Mankind has observed over 775 fiat currencies come and go. Every form of fiat currency in existence is doomed to fail. The only reason the US dollar has been going on for so long is because of its position as the world reserve currency, one which is heavily backed by the might of the US military, affording it substantial breathing space as the only currency utilised in the trade of oil. This has allowed the USA to export its inflation around the world thereby suppressing consumer prices. Many major economists (both idealogically to the Left and Right) and Wall Street bankers maintain that an inflationary spike is just around the corner. Even Fed chair Powell made admissions that inflation is unavoidable. I, along with many others, have already explained this to Boraxman however he appears to wake up with amnesia each morning only to revert back to using the same debunked arguments as the previous day. Because of this, I do not believe him to be intellectually honest.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Sun Mar 28 17:38:12 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <6060B0F4.25451.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <605F0EAC.50014.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: 9000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on Sat Mar 27 2021 09:53 pm

    Your assertion that they don't keep printing near infinite supply is wrong/flawed, so instead of accepting you were mistaken, you change the subject. I didn't say that there shouldn't have been measures taken, you're arguing a point I didn't make. Typical leftist progressive.

    The value of the US dollar, if supply is infinite, should be zero.

    It isn't.

    Why is the value of the dollar not zero then?


    We have already discussed this, Boraxman, and you went quiet after the distinction between the theoretical limit and the real world limit in relation to quantitative easing was made by both myself and Dr What. We have already discussed and clarified the reasons as to why fiat currencies have percieved values and can be exchanged for goods and services.

    I don't want to pick on you because a number of people on this board are guilty of the same crime, but it appears that VERY FEW of us are intellectually honest enough to change position whenever we are confronted by a greater argument. This renders much of the discussion pointless due to the covering and re-treading of the same ground again and again, well after the facts have been established and explained thoroughly.

    ---
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  • From Lupine Furmen@VERT/FURFOL to poindexter FORTRAN on Sun Mar 28 11:06:13 2021
    @VIA: FURFOL
    @MSGID: <6060A975.19195.dove-general@furmenservices.net>
    @REPLY: <605DE870.46977.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Boraxman on Fri Mar 26 2021 06:39:00

    Are you fucking serious? Most of the US currency in the world was
    "created" in the past two years... it's not infinite, but it's
    actually a problem.

    What should have been done to prop up the economy during the
    pandemic?

    Give money to the people to spend, who'll prop up the economy from the bottom up, be able to eat, pay their landlords, and generally survive?

    Exactly. Business should not have gotten a single dime of the stimulus money. Every last penny should have gone to the citizens. Then it let the citizens decide what businesses live or die with their spending.
    -+-

    Lupine Furmen
    -Dallas Vinson
    Furmens Folly (FIDO 1:123/257) - telnet: furmenservices.net:23
    SSH: furmenservices.net:23222
    Before the Web - telnet: furmenservices.net:23232
    Legends of Yesteryear (FIDO 1:123/256) - telnet: furmenservices.net:23322
    Sound Source ]|[ - telnet: furmenservices.net:2323



    Dallas

    ... I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Furmen's Folly - furmenservices.net:23
  • From Lupine Furmen@VERT/FURFOL to Tracker1 on Sun Mar 28 11:13:45 2021
    @VIA: FURFOL
    @MSGID: <6060AB39.19196.dove-general@furmenservices.net>
    @REPLY: <605E1971.17197.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Tracker1 to Boraxman on Fri Mar 26 2021 10:27:12

    I think this thread needs to be moved to the politics echo.
    -+-

    Lupine Furmen
    -Dallas Vinson
    Furmens Folly (FIDO 1:123/257) - telnet: furmenservices.net:23
    SSH: furmenservices.net:23222
    Before the Web - telnet: furmenservices.net:23232
    Legends of Yesteryear (FIDO 1:123/256) - telnet: furmenservices.net:23322
    Sound Source ]|[ - telnet: furmenservices.net:2323



    Dallas

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Furmen's Folly - furmenservices.net:23
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Lupine Furmen on Mon Mar 29 08:51:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6061CE6C.51651.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <6060A975.19195.dove-general@furmenservices.net>
    @TZ: c12c
    Lupine Furmen wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Exactly. Business should not have gotten a single dime of the stimulus money. Every last penny should have gone to the citizens. Then it let
    the citizens decide what businesses live or die with their spending.

    Unfortunately, Leftie Tyrants (like "Governor" Whit-less here in Michigan) decided what business should live or die. You can't spend money at a business that the gov't does not "allow" to open.


    ... "640K ought to be enough for anybody." (Bill Gates, 1981)
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Andeddu on Mon Mar 29 08:47:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <6061CEDF.53738.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <605FC81D.25437.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Sunday 28.03.21 - 00:04, Andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    Every link to the ultimate destination sort of locks up and the
    swirwly dots thing just stops. Maybe the event had/has a
    limited booking. :(

    That's too bad. I see that Teeka Tiwari has been interviewed on London
    Real and it took place only 6 days ago. It's up on YouTube so I'll
    probably give it a watch in the next couple of days to see what the guy is all about. Brian Rose is an ex-trader himself and a great interviewer so I am sure it'll be worth a watch.

    I found another "interview" with TT, but again, it only mentions
    a place to "sign-up" inorder to find out what TT's coin-pick is.
    I was one with Brian Rose too. The interview mentioned Mar 24
    as the announcement date. So, maybe that's the one that you
    heard about? Anyway.. I haven't come across any material that
    links up Tiwari and the specific coin(s).


    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Andeddu on Mon Mar 29 08:57:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <6061CEDF.53739.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <605FC099.25435.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Andeddu!

    ** On Saturday 27.03.21 - 23:32, Andeddu wrote to Ogg:

    Interested in taking this topic to an emptier echo? I could
    could post snippets from the newsletter I get. Discuss. Hope.
    Dream. I would suggest CHAT or COFFEE_KLATSCH. Then, if the
    investment topic becomes bullish (pun intended) a dedicated echo
    to talk about it could work well.

    Yeah, I am happy to talk about investments and different types of
    financial instruments, etc... We can work something out. Does Net Mail work? Would that be suitable?

    Maybe a public space would be more fun. It could give a chance
    for people to chime in. And we can prefix the subject with [$]
    so that investment-talk is easier to filter and look up in an
    otherwise "general" echo.

    NFTs are ludicrous. I don't see how you could auction off
    something that is a component part of a much larger online account/presence...

    'Fungibility' is genrally an asset's ability to be broken
    down into identical parts. For instance, 50 cents is half of
    a dollar and is worth 50 cents regardless of which 50 cent
    coin it is and who is carrying it.

    I didn't quite see the "component part" aspect of it. I need to
    read more about it.

    Barter doesn't work in a sophisticated trade economy because
    you can't break down commodities into smaller identical
    component parts. A horse may be worth 200 loafs of bread,
    however if you only need one loaf of bread and a horse is
    all you have then you're onto plums. That is why a currency
    has to be fungible.

    In the recent year or two, this service has popped up:

    https://barterpay.ca

    Another one I just noticed:

    https://www.swapsity.ca/

    Sounds interesting. I like the way the system attempts to
    coordinate people with other people who could exchange different
    goods for different things. But I see a tiny flaw in it. More
    later.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Mon Mar 29 18:12:35 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <60620A83.25465.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
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    @TZ: 9000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Andeddu on Sun Mar 28 2021 10:27 pm

    The reason that there is no finite limit to the amount of currency that can be issued, is because there may not be a finite limit to which the economy can grow. Perhaps physically there is, but we don't where where that is. Where would you set the limit?

    Now, if you want to argue that the money supply is growing faster than it should, that is a different discussion (and one where you won't find me disagreeing). But making the amount of money that could potentially be issued FINITE doesn't fix that, unless you want to create a shortage, by setting the limit below that which is warranted.

    My point is, the mere fact it is theoretically infinite is not the problem. It is the practical issuance of money which is the problem.

    We have been through this dance before. Although there is no theoretical limit to a fiat currency, the real world limit is reached when it can no longer be exchanged for goods and services. I do not see what part of this concept is diffcult to understand in relation to a backed currency being fundamentally different from an unbacked one.

    The upper-limit of currency units in the system is dictated by economic output along with a country's holdings of precious metals. The US has a lower REAL economic output along with less precious metals in its bullion banks in comparison to historical figures, and yet FAR MORE currency is being created than ever before resulting in higher consumer prices.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to Boraxman on Mon Mar 29 18:33:55 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <60620F83.25466.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <60620A83.25465.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: 9000
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Andeddu to Boraxman on Mon Mar 29 2021 06:12 pm

    My point is, the mere fact it is theoretically infinite is not the problem. It is the practical issuance of money which is the problem.

    Fiat currencys ARE a problem due to the human condition. The idea that any of us would not collect cash from an infinite money tree in our backyard is ridiculous, just as it is ridiculous to expect politicians to have the integrity and restraint not to print currency to pay for funding gaps or pet projects. You would only be right if we were governed by an AI administrator who was progammed NOT to create more currency units unless certain conditions, such as a higher GDP, were met.

    ---
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  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to DR. WHAT on Tue Mar 30 14:35:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <60637172.53749.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <6061CE6C.51651.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: c12c
    Lupine Furmen wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

    Exactly. Business should not have gotten a single dime of the stimulus money. Every last penny should have gone to the citizens. Then it let the citizens decide what businesses live or die with their spending.

    Unfortunately, Leftie Tyrants (like "Governor" Whit-less here in Michigan) decided what business should live or die. You can't spend money at a business
    that the gov't does not "allow" to open.

    Same here in Kentucky.


    * SLMR 2.1a * Make like a tree and leave.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Vlk-451@VERT/INREALM to Tracker1 on Thu Apr 1 13:06:37 2021
    @VIA: INREALM
    @MSGID: <6065FD9D.10641.dove-general@innerrealmbbs.us>
    @REPLY: <60588CE6.17088.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: c12c
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Tracker1 to Dr. What on Mon Mar 22 2021 05:26 am

    Trying to tax the "income" of companies is an exercise in futility.

    This.

    ■ Crystal Palace, Orbitsville ■

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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Arelor on Fri Apr 2 23:23:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <6067149E.50085.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <606061CD.22172.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <606061CD.22172.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <605F0EAA.50013.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on
    Sat Mar 27 2021 09:49 pm

    I am pretty sure if you actually had a good faith position to become informed, you'd be able to use a search engine yourself. As far as I'm concerned, I am not in favor of collectivist/socialist policies. I could be convinced of an argument for specific social programs, but that is far from the same argument.

    You didn't answer the question. What specifically did I say, which endorsed Communism, or some form of collectivism?


    Economic systems in which the think of production is carried out by enterprises that are collectively owned by workers are collectivist.
    They are prominently featured by Fascist and anarcho-syndicalist
    programs.

    Don't shareholders collectively own a company? Is Capitalism then collectivist too?

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dr. What on Fri Apr 2 23:29:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <606714A0.50086.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60608B42.51639.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <60608B42.51639.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <605F0EA8.50012.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Tracker1 <=-

    Not disputing that. I was referring more to culture and values.
    Companies can effectively "ban" speech, even if the government itself doesn't.

    The idea that companies can effectively ban speech is not 100% correct.

    There are laws dealing with political ads, for example. A TV station can't air only one side. They have to provide the same access to all sides.

    Then there's Section 230 - which protects platforms (i.e. the company
    is not responsible for the content of its users). The reason for that
    is that the company claims that it cannot police the content.

    But if the company censors content, then 1) it's not a platform, but a publisher
    and 2) it proved that it **can** police its content. Therefore it
    should have no Section 230 protection and can be sued for the content
    of its users.

    But they can choose who they do business with. They can choose not to provide services. They can collude to do this. We've already witnessed this.

    If Mastercard, SalesForce, Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AWS decide that it is not in their business interest to support you (for underlying political motives), they can cut you off. This is a major disincentive to engage in speech which could get you cut off.

    Of course, they aren't being 100% honest about this. It's not like when they colluded to destroy Parler they were being transparent, which makes it hard to prove that there is an underlying motive apart from the publically stated one.

    Remember, human beings run these companies, and humans are f%$k-ups. Just because they are in enterprise doens't make them any less corruptible.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Andeddu on Fri Apr 2 23:50:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <606714A2.50087.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6060B0F4.25451.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: 9258
    Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6060B0F4.25451.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <605F0EAC.50014.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Tracker1 on
    Sat Mar 27 2021 09:53 pm

    Your assertion that they don't keep printing near infinite supply is wrong/flawed, so instead of accepting you were mistaken, you change the subject. I didn't say that there shouldn't have been measures taken, you're arguing a point I didn't make. Typical leftist progressive.

    The value of the US dollar, if supply is infinite, should be zero.

    It isn't.

    Why is the value of the dollar not zero then?


    We have already discussed this, Boraxman, and you went quiet after the distinction between the theoretical limit and the real world limit in relation to quantitative easing was made by both myself and Dr What. We have already discussed and clarified the reasons as to why fiat
    currencies have percieved values and can be exchanged for goods and services.

    I don't want to pick on you because a number of people on this board
    are guilty of the same crime, but it appears that VERY FEW of us are intellectually honest enough to change position whenever we are
    confronted by a greater argument. This renders much of the discussion pointless due to the covering and re-treading of the same ground again
    and again, well after the facts have been established and explained thoroughly.

    I went quiet because I've been away, not because I have something to avoid.

    Mathematically, infinite has a specific meaning. Infinite supply is NOT approachable mathematically. It simply not possible. You can sure as hell print a lot more money than you should.

    I don't place that much stock in economic theory, it is called the dismal science for a reason. Lets look at what we observe, and the relationship between action and results...


    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Andeddu on Fri Apr 2 23:54:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <606714A4.50088.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <60620F83.25466.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: 9258
    Andeddu wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <60620F83.25466.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @REPLY: <60620A83.25465.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Andeddu to Boraxman on
    Mon Mar 29 2021 06:12 pm

    My point is, the mere fact it is theoretically infinite is not the problem. It is the practical issuance of money which is the problem.

    Fiat currencys ARE a problem due to the human condition. The idea that
    any of us would not collect cash from an infinite money tree in our backyard is ridiculous, just as it is ridiculous to expect politicians
    to have the integrity and restraint not to print currency to pay for funding gaps or pet projects. You would only be right if we were
    governed by an AI administrator who was progammed NOT to create more currency units unless certain conditions, such as a higher GDP, were
    met.

    You would do what then? Return to the gold standard?

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Boraxman on Sat Apr 3 04:26:32 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <606834C8.22234.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6067149E.50085.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on Fri Apr 02 2021 11:23 pm

    Economic systems in which the think of production is carried out by enterprises that are collectively owned by workers are collectivist. They are prominently featured by Fascist and anarcho-syndicalist programs.

    Don't shareholders collectively own a company? Is Capitalism then collectiv too?


    Shareholders don't own the company by virtue of working on it.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Arelor on Sat Apr 3 23:24:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <60685E92.50097.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <606834C8.22234.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: 9258
    Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <606834C8.22234.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6067149E.50085.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Arelor on
    Fri Apr 02 2021 11:23 pm

    Economic systems in which the think of production is carried out by enterprises that are collectively owned by workers are collectivist. They are prominently featured by Fascist and anarcho-syndicalist programs.

    Don't shareholders collectively own a company? Is Capitalism then collectiv too?


    Shareholders don't own the company by virtue of working on it.

    A shareholder owns at least part of the company. Any publically listed company will have multiple people who have a stake in it.

    And yes, I am arguing that the rightful owner of the product of labour, is labour itself. You can throw whatever label you like on it, and think if it all you like. Throwing words like "Fascist" doesn't sway me, I've seen that word thrown about so, so much by the left I tend to just ignore it. Just as I tend to ignore claims of "Socialism", as most of the time, it used by the right the way that facist is used by the left, a vacuous smear term.



    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
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  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Boraxman on Sat Apr 3 15:08:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6068D5F9.51707.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <606714A0.50086.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c12c
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    But they can choose who they do business with. They can choose not to provide services. They can collude to do this. We've already
    witnessed this.

    You really need to read up on that because your ignorance is showing.

    If a business refuses to do business because you are a "protected" class, then the answer is that they can't do that and they are in violation of federal anti-descrimination laws.

    In California, they have more protected classes and that includes political affiliations.

    If Mastercard, SalesForce, Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AWS decide that it
    is not in their business interest to support you (for underlying
    political motives), they can cut you off.

    Actually, if you live in California, they can't.

    Of course, they aren't being 100% honest about this. It's not like
    when they colluded to destroy Parler they were being transparent, which makes it hard to prove that there is an underlying motive apart from
    the publically stated one.

    First time is a coincidence. Second time is just bad luck. Third time
    there's something up.


    ... To our sweethearts and wives. May they never meet!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Arelor on Sat Apr 3 16:30:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6068D5F9.51708.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <606834C8.22234.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: c12c
    Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Don't shareholders collectively own a company? Is Capitalism then collectiv too?

    Shareholders don't own the company by virtue of working on it.

    Lefties don't understand economics. That's really the issue here.

    As an employee, I don't make nearly as much as the owners do. But my risk
    is also very low. If the company makes a bad decision and goes bankrupt,
    I just go find another job.

    As the owner, I make much more than employees. But I also
    shoulder much greater risk. If I borrow $1 million for a new idea and that idea turned out to be a flop and the company goes bankrupt, I still have to repay that.

    As a shareholder gets a share of the company, but also a share of the risks.
    If I pay $1000 for a share in a company and that company goes bankrupt
    that $1000 is gone.

    Kickstarter is great example of how this works. Many people kick in (relatively)
    small amounts of money into a project. If the project succeeds, they get
    what the project promised. If the project fails, they get nothing. (It's amazing how many Kickstart people fail to understand this.)


    ... I'm not worthless. I can always serve as a bad example.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Dr. What on Sat Apr 3 17:56:36 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <6068F2A4.22246.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <6068D5F9.51708.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Sat Apr 03 2021 04:30 pm


    Kickstarter is great example of how this works. Many people kick in (relatively)
    small amounts of money into a project. If the project succeeds, they get what the project promised. If the project fails, they get nothing. (It's amazing how many Kickstart people fail to understand this.)


    Crowdfunding is a weird beast.

    It was born as a low risk way of funding projects. The stakes for backers are low because most crowdfunding platformsm will return the money to them if the funding goals are not achieved.

    What pisses me off is that the marketing engine has turned it into a pre-order system. Entities that are capable of pushing the project forward without funding launch a crowdfunding campaign nevertheless. Fans give them loads of money because that way they get to own a copy of the end product before anybody else, plus early adopter bonuses. It is so often assumed that the whole procedure is a pre-order, that when there are issues everybody is surprised and starts screaming bloody murder.

    Man we humans are stupid as bricks.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Boraxman on Sat Apr 3 12:34:00 2021
    @VIA: REALITY
    @MSGID: <606911EC.47088.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <606714A4.50088.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c1e0
    Boraxman wrote to Andeddu <=-

    You would do what then? Return to the gold standard?

    Enter conspiracy theory that most of the world's gold has been looted
    already. Has anyone ever seen a bar of gold?


    ... Abandon desire
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Arelor on Sun Apr 4 09:34:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <6069C78D.51722.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <6068F2A4.22246.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @TZ: c12c
    Arelor wrote to Dr. What <=-

    Crowdfunding is a weird beast.

    Not really. It's really no different then how start ups get funded.

    But the people involved take a much lower risk.

    What pisses me off is that the marketing engine has turned it into a pre-order system.

    And that is the real problem with crowdfunding. They aren't setting the expectations correctly. In the Venture Capital area, the people with the
    money to invest have a good eye for BS (think Sharktank) and know when
    it's a bad investment.

    But the crowdfunding people are given the expectation that they are pre-ordering
    a product when they are, in fact, funding a start up that may fail to start.

    I've had a few Kickstarter projects that simply fail to lift off for many reasons.
    I've only had a couple where the project person took the money and ran.
    Then I had some projects that produced, only to find that the product was
    not nearly as good as promised.

    But I've had more than my share of successes too. The CrowPi, for example.
    My nephew got a great Christmas present that year.

    Man we humans are stupid as bricks.

    Have you ever read anything by Bruce Schneier? He's probably the closest
    that I've ever seen to be called Security Expert.

    But he's written many times that human's are really bad at determining risk.

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/11/perceived_risk_2.html

    + People exaggerate spectacular but rare risks and downplay common risks.
    + People have trouble estimating risks for anything not exactly like their normal situation.
    + Personified risks are perceived to be greater than anonymous risks.
    + People underestimate risks they willingly take and overestimate risks in situations they canâÇÖt control.
    + Last, people overestimate risks that are being talked about and remain an object of public scrutiny.



    ... You have PMS and a Handgun? I'll go quietly.....
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Dr. What on Sun Apr 4 23:33:19 2021
    @VIA: BBSESINF
    @MSGID: <606A930F.4142.dove-gen@bbses.info>
    @REPLY: <6069C78D.51722.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Crwodfunding (Was Gab)
    By: Dr. What to Arelor on Sun Apr 04 2021 09:34 am

    But he's written many times that human's are really bad at determining risk.

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/11/perceived_risk_2.html

    + People exaggerate spectacular but rare risks and downplay common risks.
    + People have trouble estimating risks for anything not exactly like their

    also he said that people ignore longterm risks and over react to new risks.

    heart disease and covid!
    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Dr. What on Mon Apr 5 07:00:00 2021
    @VIA: REALITY
    @MSGID: <606B223E.47114.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <6069C78D.51722.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: c1e0
    Subject: Re: Crwodfunding (Was Gab)
    @MSGID: <606B223E.47114.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <6069C78D.51722.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: c1e0
    Dr. What wrote to Arelor <=-

    What pisses me off is that the marketing engine has turned it into a pre-order system.

    And that is the real problem with crowdfunding. They aren't setting
    the expectations correctly.

    What bothers me is seeing established, profitable companies using
    crowdfunding to pay for products under the guise of "let the people vote for what they want with their dollars".

    In my opinion, crowdfunding was meant to let individuals and small companies leverage sources of money when they don't have funds available through the usual means.


    ... Abandon desire
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From Lupine Furmen@VERT/FURFOL to Dr. What on Mon Apr 5 09:17:12 2021
    @VIA: FURFOL
    @MSGID: <606B1BE8.19295.dove-general@furmenservices.net>
    @REPLY: <6061CE6C.51651.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Dr. What to Lupine Furmen on Mon Mar 29 2021 08:51:00

    Exactly. Business should not have gotten a single dime of the
    stimulus money. Every last penny should have gone to the citizens.
    Then it let the citizens decide what businesses live or die with
    their spending.

    Unfortunately, Leftie Tyrants (like "Governor" Whit-less here in Michigan) decided what business should live or die. You can't spend money at a business that the gov't does not "allow" to open.

    And THERE is blatant proof of the corruption in Government. THESE are the people that need to be removed from power at all costs! They need to be reminded that they WORK FOR US! NOT the corporations or lobbiests!!!!

    It is time for a revolution!! Every day we see more and more examples of how this government is a FAILED experiment and MUST BE REPLACED!!!
    -+-

    Lupine Furmen
    -Dallas Vinson
    Furmens Folly (FIDO 1:123/257) - telnet: furmenservices.net:23
    SSH: furmenservices.net:23222
    Before the Web - telnet: furmenservices.net:23232
    Legends of Yesteryear (FIDO 1:123/256) - telnet: furmenservices.net:23322
    Sound Source ]|[ - telnet: furmenservices.net:2323



    Dallas

    ... A liberal is a conservative who's been mugged by reality.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Furmen's Folly - furmenservices.net:23
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to poindexter FORTRAN on Mon Apr 5 17:32:33 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <606B9001.22294.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
    @REPLY: <606B223E.47114.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: Crwodfunding (Was Gab)
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Dr. What on Mon Apr 05 2021 07:00 am

    Dr. What wrote to Arelor <=-

    What pisses me off is that the marketing engine has turned it into a pre-order system.

    And that is the real problem with crowdfunding. They aren't setting the expectations correctly.

    What bothers me is seeing established, profitable companies using crowdfunding to pay for products under the guise of "let the people vote for what they want with their dollars".

    In my opinion, crowdfunding was meant to let individuals and small companies leverage sources of money when they don't have funds available through the usual means.


    ... Abandon desire

    Exactly this. A hundred times THIS.

    Also, crowdfunding is being used in hobby niches for bypassing traditional points of sale and I still don' know how I feel about it.

    For example, it used to be the case that roleplayers in small communities would use a local game store or club as a place for meeting, gamming and purchasing supplies for the hobby.One of the things crowdfunding does is to launch pre-order campaigns for items that the local game store would have sold otherwise. Since most small stores are struggling already, this is bad news for them.

    Some players are actually worried about this (and other issues with crwdfunding campaigns in the hobby) because oftentimes they only get to play in the local game store. When you add the high rate of botched crowdfundings in the gaming world, some people gets really pissed off.

    But as long as there are whales (videogame slang for people who spends vasts ammounts of money on purchaseable extras) then the crowdfunding model will be profitable even if most people does not want part in it.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Boraxman on Mon Apr 5 17:10:01 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <606BA6DB.17351.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <605F0EA8.50012.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/27/2021 3:48 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    Corporate power is granted by government, not limited by it...
    Government grants liability protections to companies. If they
    didn't do that, then common-law could handle most issues with
    corporate abuse of power.

    Not disputing that. I was referring more to culture and values.
    Companies can effectively "ban" speech, even if the government
    itself doesn't.

    The following concept only needs to be expanded to include virtual
    public squares of size.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privately_owned_public_space

    When social media sites include congressional representatives, senators
    and presidents, they should have strict limitations on who/how it can
    block people from access.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Dr. What on Mon Apr 5 17:21:32 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <606BA98E.17352.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <60608B42.51639.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/28/2021 5:54 AM, Dr. What wrote:

    Then there's Section 230 - which protects platforms (i.e. the company
    is not responsible for the content of its users). The reason for
    that is that the company claims that it cannot police the content.

    But if the company censors content, then 1) it's not a platform, but
    a publisher and 2) it proved that it **can** police its content.
    Therefore it should have no Section 230 protection and can be sued
    for the content of its users.

    I'm not sure I'd go that far for most sites... I would suggest that at a certain size/scale in terms of percentage of the general population,
    that a site must respect legal content. There's also differences in
    proactive vs. responsive monitoring as well as due diligence.

    For contrast, a Catholic message board shouldn't be required to keep
    posts in support of abortion if they don't want that content. As long
    as it's specifically spelled out what is and isn't acceptable, the
    policies, decision process and evenly applied, I am less concerned about placing those restrictions.

    What happened to Parlor should be considered far more scary than the censorship.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Andeddu on Mon Apr 5 17:26:58 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <606BAAD4.17353.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6060B0F4.25451.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/28/2021 9:38 AM, Andeddu wrote:>
    I don't want to pick on you because a number of people on this board
    are guilty of the same crime, but it appears that VERY FEW of us are intellectually honest enough to change position whenever we are
    confronted by a greater argument. This renders much of the discussion pointless due to the covering and re-treading of the same ground again
    and again, well after the facts have been established and explained thoroughly.

    Not to me... that said, I tend to shift my position quite a bit when
    based on more information. Moral/ethical discussions, less so. Most of
    the time when I stop talking is more because I'm tired of arguing with
    someone that won't shift or is demanding of me something that will take
    more time than I have or are willing to take.

    In terms of moral and ethical PoV, I tend to lean libertarian as an
    ideal... usually pragmatic about the reality of a direction or solutions
    that can work. There are a lot of things I'm morally against, but don't
    think should be illegal out of principle.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From Tracker1@VERT/TRN to Lupine Furmen on Mon Apr 5 17:35:55 2021
    @VIA: TRN
    @MSGID: <606BACED.17354.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <6060A975.19195.dove-general@furmenservices.net>
    @TZ: fe5c
    On 3/28/2021 9:06 AM, Lupine Furmen wrote:

    Exactly. Business should not have gotten a single dime of the stimulus money. Every last penny should have gone to the citizens. Then it let
    the citizens decide what businesses live or die with their spending.

    I differ greatly, or at least a lot. I think the original plan to
    "flatten the curve" should have consisted of 3 days to prepare, followed
    by a 2-week lockdown, with a suspension of interest/payments on interest bearing accounts during the lockdown.

    I think after the hard lockdown, closing bars (bar seating) and event
    centers would have been sufficient in most places, and that there would
    have been enough to fund those businesses spending less than we actually
    did for 3+ months... from there, the suggestion of mask wearing with a
    30-50% buffer on spacing for restaurants etc. would have probably been
    more than enough.

    Martial Law and orders as such could have held for 2-3 months while
    working on improving infrastructure suggestions. These were my
    positions close to from the beginning, and those here that know me on FB
    can confirm as such. I think the whole think was largely overblown.

    I do think that NYC was probably more appropriate for stronger
    lockdowns, but given the amount of politicized information, and the
    broader scope of NY State, it's hard to say for sure.

    There was definitely abuse of the programs put into place for
    businesses, there always is... giving everyone a check rather than
    basing it on income over a year and a half removed was probably a bad
    idea, and just supplying a check to everyone who filed taxes the year
    before would probably have been better/easier to sort out.
    --
    Michael J. Ryan - tracker1@roughneckbbs.com

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Roughneck BBS - roughneckbbs.com
  • From HusTler@VERT/PHARCYDE to Lupine Furmen on Tue Apr 6 06:35:17 2021
    @VIA: PHARCYDE
    @MSGID: <606C4775.26736.dove-gen@pharcyde.org>
    @REPLY: <606B1BE8.19295.dove-general@furmenservices.net>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: CAPITALIST PIGS (was: re: GAB)
    By: Lupine Furmen to Dr. What on Mon Apr 05 2021 09:17 am

    And THERE is blatant proof of the corruption in Government. THESE are the people that need to be removed from power at all costs! They need to be reminded that they WORK FOR US! NOT the corporations or lobbiests!!!!

    It is time for a revolution!! Every day we see more and more examples of how this government is a FAILED experiment and MUST BE REPLACED!!!
    -+-
    I'm with ya! Arghhh! What next. We will follow you all the way!

    ... A day for firm decisions!!!!! Or is it?

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Apr 6 09:13:00 2021
    @VIA: DMINE
    @MSGID: <606C68E2.51779.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <606B223E.47114.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @TZ: c12c
    poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Dr. What <=-

    What bothers me is seeing established, profitable companies using crowdfunding to pay for products under the guise of "let the people
    vote for what they want with their dollars".

    But the people **always** vote for what they want with their dollars. There's nothing wrong or strange about that.

    Personally, I see established companies using crowdfunding as a good thing.

    Let's say that Company comes up with a product. But they are unsure about
    how the public will respond to it. So they crowdfund it. The Company
    keeps its investment to a minimum and can see how the public responds.

    If people don't like it, the crowdfunding project aborts and the Company
    loses far less money then they would have if they produced a product,
    with advertising and sent it to all the stores.

    If people do like it, they Company now has seed money (which means less financial risk) to actually start producing the product. They can also
    get good feedback from the early purchasers to improve the product.

    In my opinion, crowdfunding was meant to let individuals and small companies leverage sources of money when they don't have funds
    available through the usual means.

    It makes no difference what it was intended for if everyone can use it
    for their benefit.


    ... Always smile. It makes people wonder what you're up to.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Tracker1 on Tue Apr 6 23:50:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <606C6985.50175.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <606BA6DB.17351.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: 1258
    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <606BA6DB.17351.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @REPLY: <605F0EA8.50012.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    On 3/27/2021 3:48 AM, Boraxman wrote:
    Corporate power is granted by government, not limited by it...
    Government grants liability protections to companies. If they
    didn't do that, then common-law could handle most issues with
    corporate abuse of power.

    Not disputing that. I was referring more to culture and values.
    Companies can effectively "ban" speech, even if the government
    itself doesn't.

    The following concept only needs to be expanded to include virtual
    public squares of size.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privately_owned_public_space

    When social media sites include congressional representatives, senators and presidents, they should have strict limitations on who/how it can block people from access.

    Agree. If you choose to make your infrastructure the 'public square', you have to accept that social obligations that come with that, specifically our culture of free, open and democratic debate. I do not consider it an imposition on business to put this obligation on them.



    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Dr. What on Wed Apr 7 00:00:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
    @MSGID: <606C6987.50176.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @REPLY: <6068D5F9.51707.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @TZ: 1258
    Dr. What wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <6068D5F9.51707.dove-general@dmine.net>
    @REPLY: <606714A0.50086.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Boraxman wrote to Dr. What <=-

    But they can choose who they do business with. They can choose not to provide services. They can collude to do this. We've already
    witnessed this.

    You really need to read up on that because your ignorance is showing.

    If a business refuses to do business because you are a "protected"
    class, then the answer is that they can't do that and they are in violation of federal anti-descrimination laws.

    In California, they have more protected classes and that includes political affiliations.

    If Mastercard, SalesForce, Facebook, Twitter, Uber, AWS decide that it
    is not in their business interest to support you (for underlying
    political motives), they can cut you off.

    Actually, if you live in California, they can't.

    Of course, they aren't being 100% honest about this. It's not like
    when they colluded to destroy Parler they were being transparent, which makes it hard to prove that there is an underlying motive apart from
    the publically stated one.

    First time is a coincidence. Second time is just bad luck. Third time there's something up.

    I didn't mention anything about a 'protected class'. https://www.inputmag.com/tech/salesforce-has-cut-off-emails-from-the-trump-campaign
    https://www.projectveritas.com/news/leaked-insider-tape-reveals-salesforces-plan-to-deplatform-broader-range-of/

    https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2021/01/08/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/

    I think we will see more of this type of action. It will be framed as businesses acting morally, sustainably, ethically. Discrimination is already legal. How do you think diversity quotas are reached? Unless you have the candidates, you must discriminate against people. And I've worked at companies where manager have been told specifically to prefer a 'protected class' over another, despite the other being more qualified.

    It would be interesting to see a legal challenge to diversity quotas, but I think you would lose.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Dumas Walker@VERT/CAPCITY2 to POINDEXTER FORTRAN on Tue Apr 6 14:38:00 2021
    @VIA: CAPCITY2
    @MSGID: <606CB9AE.53871.dove-gen@capitolcityonline.net>
    @REPLY: <606B223E.47114.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @TZ: c12c
    What bothers me is seeing established, profitable companies using crowdfunding to pay for products under the guise of "let the people vote for what they want with their dollars".

    In my opinion, crowdfunding was meant to let individuals and small companies leverage sources of money when they don't have funds available through the usual means.

    +1


    * SLMR 2.1a * bulldozer (n.) - political speech writer taking a nap.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Tracker1 on Tue Apr 6 06:50:00 2021
    @VIA: REALITY
    @MSGID: <606DAD52.47175.dove.dove-gen@realitycheckbbs.org>
    @REPLY: <606BA6DB.17351.dove-general@roughneckbbs.com>
    @TZ: c1e0
    Tracker1 wrote to Boraxman <=-

    The following concept only needs to be expanded to include virtual
    public squares of size.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privately_owned_public_space

    I miss working in San Francisco - finding all of the POPs became a bit of a scavenger hunt. I had one 3 doors down from my office space with a Peets coffee at the ground floor; it became a meeting place for my friends in the area.

    When social media sites include congressional representatives, senators and presidents, they should have strict limitations on who/how it can block people from access.

    Exactly.


    ... A closed system lacks the ability to renew itself.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From Knightbbs@VERT/ENSEMBLE to Boraxman on Thu Apr 8 00:50:39 2021
    @VIA: ENSEMBLE
    @MSGID: <606E99AF.28430.dove-general@warensemble.com>
    @REPLY: <606714A0.50086.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    @TZ: c168
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Dr. What on Fri Apr 02 2021 11:29 pm

    Article 230 is a dangerous law. If the platforms are NOT responsible for the content on their platform you can get 2 things: 1: Whoever wants to can buy political adds to influence an election with disinformation without the platform being responsible and 2: The platform can ban/censor anyone they please. This puts a LOT of power in the hands of the platforms WITHOUT liability. In classic media the same rules do not apply: If you publish something as a paper you are held responsible for what you print AND if you decide to censor somebody another news outlet can continue to let them speak. This is not the case with the big platforms (Twitter, Facebook). The fact they are not responsible for the content combined with their size, commercial goals and totally untransparent algorhythems make them a serious threat to democracy and free speech.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Knightbbs on Thu Apr 8 07:12:00 2021
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    Knightbbs wrote to Boraxman <=-

    Article 230 is a dangerous law. If the platforms are NOT responsible
    for the content on their platform you can get 2 things: 1: Whoever
    wants to can buy political adds to influence an election with disinformation without the platform being responsible and 2: The
    platform can ban/censor anyone they please.

    My thought is that most of the social networks are playing both sides of the card. Either you're a service and exert *no* editorial content and you don't manipulate the order or what content people see in order to make money. In that case, 230 applies.

    The telephone pole that you staple a flyer with your conspiracy theory is equally non-culpable.

    When you start manipulating the order and the presence of content, that's
    when I think 230 protections should stop. At that point you're a publisher exerting editorial control over your content.

    Those have been the arguments and the test of service versus publisher since Cubby vs. Compuserve way back when.


    ... How did you find this place?
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ realitycheckBBS -- http://realitycheckBBS.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Knightbbs on Sat Apr 10 23:52:00 2021
    @VIA: MSRDBBS
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    Knightbbs wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <606E99AF.28430.dove-general@warensemble.com>
    @REPLY: <606714A0.50086.dove-gen@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Boraxman to Dr. What on
    Fri Apr 02 2021 11:29 pm

    Article 230 is a dangerous law. If the platforms are NOT responsible
    for the content on their platform you can get 2 things: 1: Whoever
    wants to can buy political adds to influence an election with disinformation without the platform being responsible and 2: The
    platform can ban/censor anyone they please. This puts a LOT of power in the hands of the platforms WITHOUT liability. In classic media the same rules do not apply: If you publish something as a paper you are held responsible for what you print AND if you decide to censor somebody another news outlet can continue to let them speak. This is not the
    case with the big platforms (Twitter, Facebook). The fact they are not responsible for the content combined with their size, commercial goals
    and totally untransparent algorhythems make them a serious threat to democracy and free speech.

    I would think that if you were selling ads on your site or service, then you are a publisher. Your phone carrier, for instance, does not sell ad space. You don't get ads in your phone calls because they don't assume they have a role in putting content. They ONLY provide the means of communication.

    Now it gets tricker with the internet, because you could have a platform, that has a website where you register, and that website where you register may have ads. Where I think the precense of ads means you are a publisher, is if you are selling ads on the actual medium, ie, allowing advertisers to buy tweets, Facebook puts ads in your feed, etc.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
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  • From Knightbbs@VERT/ENSEMBLE to poindexter FORTRAN on Tue Apr 13 06:10:33 2021
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    Re: Re: GAB
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Knightbbs on Thu Apr 08 2021 07:12 am

    When you start manipulating the order and the presence of content, that's when I think 230 protections should stop. At that point you're a publisher exerting editorial control over your content.

    That is an excellent point.

    On how I found this place ? The 'back to the bbs' documentary on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0OwGSX2IiQ and the telnet BBS guide https://www.telnetbbsguide.com/ I rather enjoy checking in once or twice a day and follow up on some thread or another :)

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ War Ensemble BBS - The sport is war, total war - warensemble.com
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Arelor on Wed Apr 14 21:58:00 2021
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    @TZ: ff10
    Hello Arelor!

    ** On Monday 05.04.21 - 17:32, Arelor wrote to poindexter FORTRAN:

    Also, crowdfunding is being used in hobby niches for
    bypassing traditional points of sale and I still don' know
    how I feel about it.

    For example, it used to be the case that roleplayers in
    small communities would use a local game store or club as a
    place for meeting, gamming and purchasing supplies for the
    hobby.One of the things crowdfunding does is to launch pre-
    order campaigns for items that the local game store would
    have sold otherwise. Since most small stores are struggling
    already, this is bad news for them.

    The key there is to charge a "rent" for using the store to stage
    their campaign.

    I've been approached by local authors who are anxious for a
    place to sell their own stock of books, hold a signing, or a
    meet-n-greet. What would I get out of it normally? Nothing.

    But, I would arrange that sales of the author's books would only
    occur at the event - through my cash register. If the author
    would run out of copies during the event, then I would ensure
    that those extra needed copies would be sold at my shop when
    more arrive thus ensuring a guaranteed sale.


    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    ■ Synchronet ■ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Nikadimus@VERT/RAVENSKR to Arelor on Mon Apr 19 20:55:48 2021
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    Re: Re: GAB
    By: Arelor to Boraxman on Fri Mar 19 2021 04:14:27

    Kids today dont realize the outcome of socialism. It seems that young adults here in America believe that a world without profit can yeald the latest medical technology and abundent food. They dont realize that all things become micro managed, in socialist world growing to little crops is better than too many.

    It is rather ironic that a generation (millenials and gen z'ers) so attuned to being different and serving the individual even to a point of attempting to change gender. I wish I could get them to understand that a socialist or near socialist regime is not going to offer transgener surgery, they dont have time for gay marriage, they wont need to care about your feelings, and will not let your personal feelings and needs get in their way. No matter who become the dictator.

    Check out China, Burma, Cuba, North Korea, and all the other Communisms and socialist regimes. Art becomes a waste of time in a socialism. All that is important is the empire itself and that each of it's citizens suffer equally for their share of life. I wish more Cubans and other ex-communist citizens did more public service annoucements gave these kids a clear eyed view of how aweful life can become. They are in denial that absolute power will corrupt their new world order.

    Sorry to just jump in, but the evil of socialism seems to pop up everywhere even in ancient archaic BBS news groups... LOL

    -Nikadimus ravenskraft.sytes.net:3000

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Ravens Kraft BBS - ravenskraft.sytes.net:3000
  • From Dr. What@VERT/DMINE to Nikadimus on Tue Apr 20 08:23:00 2021
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    Nikadimus wrote to Arelor <=-

    Kids today dont realize the outcome of socialism.

    That's because they've been miseducated for their entire lives.

    It is rather ironic that a generation (millenials and gen z'ers) so attuned to being different and serving the individual even to a point
    of attempting to change gender. I wish I could get them to understand
    that a socialist or near socialist regime is not going to offer
    transgener surgery, they dont have time for gay marriage, they wont
    need to care about your feelings, and will not let your personal
    feelings and needs get in their way. No matter who become the dictator.

    Hitler called these people "useful idiots". And just like Hitler, Democrats will use these people to get them in power then wipe them out.


    ... Runtime Error 6D at 417A:32CF: Incompetent User.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Diamond Mine Online BBS - bbs.dmine.net:24 - Fredericksburg, VA USA
  • From hollowone@VERT/AMIGAC to Arelor on Sun Apr 25 22:17:00 2021
    @VIA: AMIGAC
    @MSGID: <6085CFD1.30783.dove-general@amigacity.xyz>
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    Crowdfunding is a weird beast.

    It was born as a low risk way of funding projects. The stakes for
    backers are low because most crowdfunding platformsm will return the
    money to them if the funding goals are not achieved.

    What pisses me off is that the marketing engine has turned it into a pre-order system.

    I agree. I stopped following any crowdfunding (KickStarter) initiatives since I've realized that. I hate pre-ordering unproven product. I hate early-stage projects being sold at full retail price as well.

    This in particular touches games or books and other media projects.
    When you release, point me to your e-store. When you release let me double check reviews of somebody who already purchased.

    if you're trying to make marketing noise through crowd founding. Fuck yourself. If you're selling beta to me for full price (like BGIII).. go and finish your product and don't do message me again or you risk me ignoring your product completely.

    Tough.. but I'm not a promo-hunter trying to scalp every occasion.
    If something is worthy, take my money, full price.

    But I'm allergic to bullshit.

    /h1
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Amiga City - The BBS for the Amiga - more than 4,000+ files
  • From Zouf@VERT/AMSTRAD to hollowone on Tue Apr 27 13:05:24 2021
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    @MSGID: <6087FE04.25985.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
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    Re: Crwodfunding (Was Gab)
    By: hollowone to Arelor on Sun Apr 25 2021 10:17 pm

    If you're selling beta to me for full price (like BGIII).. go and finish you product and don't do message me again or you risk me ignoring your product

    I am a big Baldurs Gate fan and have been since the original game was released. I won't be touching BGIII until the entire game has been released and in full working order. I will wait another 2 years of needs be. There are a lot of people out there who are willing to be beta-testers who work for nothing and pay for the privilege -- this only encourages bad business practices.

    According to the initial reviews, there's missing dialogue, broken quests, bugs galore and missing features. Why anyone would want to ruin their experience by playing this version of the game is beyond me.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Zouf on Wed Apr 28 17:10:09 2021
    @VIA: PALANT
    @MSGID: <6089DD41.22712.dove-general@palantirbbs.ddns.net>
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    @TZ: c168
    Re: Crwodfunding (Was Gab)
    By: Zouf to hollowone on Tue Apr 27 2021 01:05 pm

    Re: Crwodfunding (Was Gab)
    By: hollowone to Arelor on Sun Apr 25 2021 10:17 pm

    If you're selling beta to me for full price (like BGIII).. go and finish you
    product and don't do message me again or you risk me ignoring your product

    I am a big Baldurs Gate fan and have been since the original game was released. I
    won't be touching BGIII until the entire game has been released and in full working
    order. I will wait another 2 years of needs be. There are a lot of people out there
    who are willing to be beta-testers who work for nothing and pay for the privilege -
    this only encourages bad business practices.

    According to the initial reviews, there's missing dialogue, broken quests, bugs gal
    and missing features. Why anyone would want to ruin their experience by playing thi
    version of the game is beyond me.


    Specially because games such as Baldurs Gate are a journey to uncover a plot more than
    anything else, in my opinion. You only have a shot at enjoying it for the first time.
    If your first time is ruined because you are playing a beta you are doing yourself a
    disservice.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Zouf@VERT/AMSTRAD to Arelor on Thu Apr 29 12:58:30 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <608A9F66.25997.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
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    Re: Crwodfunding (Was Gab)
    By: Arelor to Zouf on Wed Apr 28 2021 05:10 pm

    Specially because games such as Baldurs Gate are a journey to uncover a plot anything else, in my opinion. You only have a shot at enjoying it for the fi If your first time is ruined because you are playing a beta you are doing yo disservice.

    That's the main reason I play those games also, the plot. I know they'll pull through with a quality product as Larian made the Divinity: Original Sin series which re highly regarded. I've only complated the second one with I did cooperatively with a friend over the internet. I plan on playing BGIII with the same friend once it is a complete product.
    s

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From hollowone@VERT/AMIGAC to Zouf on Thu Apr 29 21:46:00 2021
    @VIA: AMIGAC
    @MSGID: <608B1B94.30816.dove-general@amigacity.xyz>
    @REPLY: <6087FE04.25985.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
    If you're selling beta to me for full price (like BGIII).. go and finish you product and don't do message me again or you risk me ignoring your product

    I am a big Baldurs Gate fan and have been since the original game was released. I won't be touching BGIII until the entire game has been released and in full working order. I will wait another 2 years of
    needs be. There are a lot of people out there who are willing to be beta-testers who work for nothing and pay for the privilege -- this
    only encourages bad business practices.

    According to the initial reviews, there's missing dialogue, broken
    quests, bugs galore and missing features. Why anyone would want to ruin their experience by playing this version of the game is beyond me.

    That's exactly like my words, friend. Top reason why I totally skipped the BGIII and and rather will give a try to new Dark Alliance action pack if D&D hungry.

    I also find more often fond to come back to old games, replaying them. Now speaking of DnD and FR setting, I'm deep into Eye of the Beholder dungeons. Completed 1 and 2 quite recently, now trying to complete EOB3. These games age like good wine or whiskey. I can tell you.

    /h1
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    ■ Synchronet ■ Amiga City - The BBS for the Amiga - more than 4,000+ files
  • From Zouf@VERT/AMSTRAD to hollowone on Sun May 2 12:08:14 2021
    @VIA: AMSTRAD
    @MSGID: <608E881E.26017.dove-general@amstrad.simulant.uk>
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    Re: Crwodfunding (Was Gab)
    By: hollowone to Zouf on Thu Apr 29 2021 09:46 pm

    That's exactly like my words, friend. Top reason why I totally skipped the BGIII and and rather will give a try to new Dark Alliance action pack if D&D hungry.

    I also find more often fond to come back to old games, replaying them. Now speaking of DnD and FR setting, I'm deep into Eye of the Beholder dungeons. Completed 1 and 2 quite recently, now trying to complete EOB3. These games a like good wine or whiskey. I can tell you.

    Awesome... Eye of the Beholder is kinda before my time. If I do source an Amiga someday I would love to complete 1 & 2.

    I am currently playing through Disco Elysium which recently recieved a full voice over patch. It's a unique kind of RPG with zero combat, all the skill-checks are related to dialogue options. It picked up GOTY in 2019 and I can understnad why -- absolutely incredible game!

    It has been a bit of a slow year for me gaming wise as the two games I've played are both massive games -- Cyberpunk 2077 and the aforementioned Disco Elysium.

    ---
    ■ Synchronet ■ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!